Exotic vs Carbon Steel Kitchen Knives

I've made several of our kitchen knives from 15N20 and am sold on them. I temper them at 335 degrees. I'm not sure how hard they are on the C scale, but I'd guess about 62. They can be ground extremely thin and still not be prone to chipping, due to the fine grain structure, I guess. They hold an edge pretty well, but are still really easy to bring back to hair-poppin' sharp. However, I use cheap Chicago Cutlery stainless on acidic foods, due to the taste left by the carbon steel. They don't hold an edge very well, but are easy enough to sharpen, so I guess they'll do.

Todd
 
Todd Robbins said:
I've made several of our kitchen knives from 15N20 and am sold on them. I temper them at 335 degrees. I'm not sure how hard they are on the C scale, but I'd guess about 62. They can be ground extremely thin and still not be prone to chipping, due to the fine grain structure, I guess. They hold an edge pretty well, but are still really easy to bring back to hair-poppin' sharp. However, I use cheap Chicago Cutlery stainless on acidic foods, due to the taste left by the carbon steel. They don't hold an edge very well, but are easy enough to sharpen, so I guess they'll do.

Todd
Click to expand...
If I were to use 15N20 that's what I would do. It's very tough, with fine carbides, so use a low temper for high hardness with a thin grind. It won't roll because of high hardness or chip because of high toughness and it won't lose its initial sharpness as quickly as the high alloy steels.
 
Interesting that you should mention Chicago Cutlery, Todd.

I bought a set of Chicago's Insignia2 stuff (it's Chinese, BTW, but nicely forged) at a local outlet store about a year ago. They do sharpen easily and take a nice edge, but the maintenance on their 8" Chef's knife and their Santoku has gotten to be a real PITA.

Shun's Elite Santoku in SG2 was a *big* improvement, but it came at a *big* price. I'm hoping to do better.

gunmike1's comments on his Takeda still have my head spinning. If you're monitoring, gunmike1, does this link describe your gyuto?
http://shop.niimi.okayama.jp/kajiya/en/index_e.html
 
That is the website. Under the catalog section find the 24 CM Gyuto and that is the one I have. It is actually a bit over 250 MM, I believe. You do have to send an order e mail, then an IPMO to pay for it, but mine arrived within a week or so of sending the money order. I didn't get the fastest e mail responses, but the order did get placed and shipped relatively fast. If you have trouble with getting a Takeda ordered you can also try Moritaka.

Mike
 
I prefer tool and carbon steel on all blades except for kitchen knives. Unless you’re the only one who is ever going to use your kitchen knife it will not get the care it needs. A thin blade grind, not necessarily the edge, is what is needed on a well performing kitchen knife and there are many stainless that work great. It is my opinion corrosion resistance; hardness and ease of sharpening are the most important features of the kitchen blade steel at least for me. My MAC knife is a very well done factory knife and I personally like it just as much or maybe even more than my custom kitchen knives.
 
What Gunmike1 said on both counts! My "240mm" chefs knife from Takeda is 256mm from tip to heel. Getting and mailing the IPMO made me feel like an international cook of mystery (though, with any knife, my food is unsettingly mysterious...). And a lot of folks are finding success with www.moritakahamono.com when it comes to order chef knives with Hitachi Blue Super steel (the gyuto chef knives aren't on the site, but they make them to order if you send an email) who are more net-friendly and don't make their gyutos as wide as the Takedas.

There are many times, though, when the Shun Elite is such a better choice than the Takeda or soft carbon steel blades. Takes and holds a thinner edge than the soft carbon blades and holds a relatively polished edge for a large amount of time (just freehand it and you'll hit an angle it'll hold) and you can use it on a poly cutting board without damaging the edge. Plus, it fits into a regular-sized chefs knife slot in your knife block (I had to widen a slot for my Takeda with a loose hacksaw blade :o ).

Okay, those reasons also apply to other high-end stainless Japanese-style knives, too, but I barely have any experience with more than four of those.
 
thombrogan said:
... Shun Elite ... just freehand it and you'll hit an angle it'll hold) and you can use it on a poly cutting board without damaging the edge
Click to expand...

Thom, I hear you loud and clear. Gracious thanks to you and the others who responded, gunmike1 especially. I guess I need to go ponder a while.
 
My vote is for the carbon steel. I have a set of Sabatier knives that I love. 30+ years old and still unbeatable as far as my opinion goes. I enjoy the once a year ritual, while the bird is in the oven for Thanksgiving, of sharpening them. Comparing these to a drawer full of stainless steel that some of the other family members use is no contest. I can slice 'n' dice quicker and get cleaner cuts anytime.

I almost disowned my in-laws when I came home from a weekend getaway with my wife and found they had put the knives in the dishwasher! A little Semichrome restored the blades nicely though. Someone else commented on the patina they get . . . I like the look.
 
If you want to try a thin Japanese blade for not a lot of money try MAC brand on the internet. They have been importing them for 40 years.
http://www.knifemerchant.com/products.asp?manufacturerID=10

The original UK-60 is so thin and gets so sharp that it is in a class by itself.
attachment.php
 
I have used a few knives in Sandvik 12C27 (Frosts professional chefs knives and butcher knives) for several years and they just stay sharp!
It seems that the 12C27 just combines the ease of resharpening of 52100 with the corrosion resistance and wear resistance of the high alloy stainless steels - probably because of the exceptional grain structure - the Sandvik 12C27 and 13C26 was developed for professional knives, surgical blades and razor blades.

My knives never rust on me and they never chip in the edges - even though I use them pretty hard sometimes (frozen fish, deboning meet) - I even put them in the dish washer once in a while (please don't tell anyone). The 12C27 and the 13C26 should behave similarly - until you put them in the dish washer, I guess. You could also get that 13C26 damn hard.

When my knives start to drop in performance I just touch them up on the steel, straightening that thin edge, and they will cut again, forever.
I rarely ever have to resharpen on a stone or anything...
It must be that fine grained structure which gives this extreme combination of hardness and toughness that allows that edge to just stay on there!

Why should the professional butchers and chefs spend extra time on resharpening - listen to them !
 
[there's also an interesting steel we're looking into called SB1]

Larrin - what about your experience with the SB1?
 
Batian said:
[there's also an interesting steel we're looking into called SB1]

Larrin - what about your experience with the SB1?
Click to expand...
I don't have any experience with it yet. My dad is making a chef's knife with it soon for a chef's knife enthusiast get together. Hopefully we will see plenty of comparisons there. I believe he wants to laminate it with a softer stainless on the sides as well, should be cool.

SB1 theoretically should offer a compromise between AEB-L/13C26 and CPM-154 or S30V. It should give a hopefully small drop in edge stability from AEB-L along with considerably greater wear resistance. I'm hoping for Blue Super like edge stability and wear resistance along with greater toughness and of course corrosion resistance.

AEB-L will still be the king of edge stability for guys who don't need the uber wear resistance of the high carbide steels (because it is quite wear resistant itself compared to the carbon steels), and want to maintain their super sharp edges. Different steels for different preferences and knives.
 
Larrin said:
AEB-L will still be the king of edge stability for guys who don't need the uber wear resistance of the high carbide steels (because it is quite wear resistant itself compared to the carbon steels), and want to maintain their super sharp edges.
Click to expand...

Larrin, do you have a chart or similar showing edge stability comparisons between steels? Possibly you're just going off info provided in previous posts on this though. I may just be frustrated about finding out more about this until I learn German. -thanks
 
Broos said:
Larrin, do you have a chart or similar showing edge stability comparisons between steels? Possibly you're just going off info provided in previous posts on this though. I may just be frustrated about finding out more about this until I learn German. -thanks
Click to expand...
All of the comparisons I know about are in German, in Roman Landes' book. However, if you understand what controls edge stability you don't need to see a test to know where a steel will fall compared to others. The thing with SB1 is its exact carbide size and volume isn't known, which is why I said I'm hoping for high edge stability, even though the various approximations available are pretty good.
 
Thanks, I'm trying to understand. I can see how you can make assumptions based on carbide size and volume, and I thought maybe just as or more importantly grain size (right?), but I'm still curious as to how consistently or closely these characteristics correlate with the edge stability test (a 90 deg. force applied on the edge) for it as described here in previous posts. For example how would a steel with small grain size and large carbides compare with one with small/few carbides and large grain size? I know that is hypothetical example, but thanks for your consideration, and I look forward to hearing more about SB1.
 
Broos said:
Thanks, I'm trying to understand. I can see how you can make assumptions based on carbide size and volume, and I thought maybe just as or more importantly grain size (right?), but I'm still curious as to how consistently or closely these characteristics correlate with the edge stability test (a 90 deg. force applied on the edge) for it as described here in previous posts. For example how would a steel with small grain size and large carbides compare with one with small/few carbides and large grain size? I know that is hypothetical example, but thanks for your consideration, and I look forward to hearing more about SB1.
Click to expand...
Grain size does effect it, a small grain size promotes edge stability. Carbide size and volume is not the only factor contributing to edge stability, but it is often the limiting factor. I couldn't tell you which would be worse between the small/large comparisons, grain can get quite large if it is overheated for long periods of time. A steel with a large volume of large carbides is going to have low edge stability and toughness regardless of how small the grain size is. While alloy can hinder grain growth, a large grain is a sign of poor forging or heat treating practice (which includes annealing and normalizing).
 
Broos said:
Thanks, I'm trying to understand. I can see how you can make assumptions based on carbide size and volume, and I thought maybe just as or more importantly grain size (right?), but I'm still curious as to how consistently or closely these characteristics correlate with the edge stability
Click to expand...
I really don't think you can assume edge stability, what ever edge stability really means, based solely on carbide size and volume. For example take a look at M2 at the high 64 ish RC, it will take and hold a very thin edge longer than anything else I've tried. I personally think grain size is very important, and suspect carbide size and volume is less so with the angles and edges used on knives. I am also very interested in how all these characteristics correlate with edge holding.
 
db said:
I really don't think you can assume edge stability, what ever edge stability really means, based solely on carbide size and volume. For example take a look at M2 at the high 64 ish RC, it will take and hold a very thin edge longer than anything else I've tried. I personally think grain size is very important, and suspect carbide size and volume is less so with the angles and edges used on knives. I am also very interested in how all these characteristics correlate with edge holding.
Click to expand...
IMO carbide size and volume is probably the most important thing to learn about in metallurgy and generally the easiest way to explain things simple. I'm not saying there aren't other factors, but carbide size and volume is often the limiting one.

M2 is actually a good example of carbide size and volume being important for edge stability. M2 doesn't do real hot in impact testing, but it does have a high edge stability. It's because of its relatively small carbide size and volume. CPM-M4 actually has pretty good edge stability as well.
 
I guess I'm misinformed I thought M2 had a fairly large amount of carbides in it. Thanks for the correction. Are the carbide size and volume in the M2 around the same as in 01, 1095 and 13C27? In my experience hard M2 out cuts by alot hard 1095 at simular hardness and sharpness. I had guessed that was due to the more carbides in M2. For kitchen work I've found stainless holds it's edge longer but I believe that is mainly due to corrosion at the very edge.
 
db said:
I guess I'm misinformed I thought M2 had a fairly large amount of carbides in it. Thanks for the correction. Are the carbide size and volume in the M2 around the same as in 01, 1095 and 13C27? In my experience hard M2 out cuts by alot hard 1095 at simular hardness and sharpness. I had guessed that was due to the more carbides in M2. For kitchen work I've found stainless holds it's edge longer but I believe that is mainly due to corrosion at the very edge.
Click to expand...
M2 has a little larger carbide size, but the volume is low like those steels, and most of the carbides are small. M2 does have better wear resistance because the carbides are harder than O1, 1095, and 13C26. Because of the high alloy the grain size is also small. I think the reason for low impact toughness is because of the occasional large carbide, but I don't know everything. Occasional large carbides don't affect edge stability as much as a large volume of carbides, which is why M2 has much greater edge stability than the PM stainless steels. You haven't seen posts from Cliff about M2?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top