Sure I have, and I’ll leave the reliability of his posts for another day. I think your post shows why I do believe grain size is much more important like I had posted above when it comes to knife edges.
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Exotic vs Carbon Steel Kitchen Knives
- Thread starter LedSled
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I have ShunPro knives in vg-10 laminated damasteel and Murry Carter Muteki and Murry Carter hand forged. The later being made out of Hitachi White steel. Both types of knives are razor sharp, and I keep them that way. I would like to get a couple of Au Carbon knives as well. They also hold a wicked edge I am told. Why get locked into one type of knife. Mix it up a little I always say. Then you can test and compare all the differant knives you have anytime you want. As far as I am concerned more knives are are always better than less!
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Thanks for the replies - an interesting topic. I wonder if this test or characteristic or material property will ever be recognized or more commonly used - I don't see how knife companies would gain any return by pursuing it, so maybe not, even assuming it is a good characteristic to rate steels for knives. I wonder if Gillette, Schick or similar companies eng. staff are aware of it or the book. They undoubtedly have done extensive testing of thin fine polished blades in various steels (and if I recall correctly AEB-L or similar steel is used for many razors).
Assuming that the test run to determine edge stability was on highly polished edges, one question I've thought about is does high edge stability also apply to very thin coarse finished blades? Some advocate very thin edges at coarse grits, and I think this would add another dimension to the edge stability equation. For this edge I would assume wear resistance may be as important as edge stability.
Assuming that the test run to determine edge stability was on highly polished edges, one question I've thought about is does high edge stability also apply to very thin coarse finished blades? Some advocate very thin edges at coarse grits, and I think this would add another dimension to the edge stability equation. For this edge I would assume wear resistance may be as important as edge stability.
I agree it is a good idea to have a few different knives. My 3 most favored kitchen knives are a custom with the Japanese white, a MAC stainless and an older Chicago Cutlery stainless. They all take a pretty thin edge and get very sharp. Witch one would you guess holds a thin sharp edge the best? The MAC. The custom will corrode and the Chicago is softer and will not last like the Mac. Yet I wouldn’t be without any of them.
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This is a question I have considered as well. Cliff Stamp did a test where he had a very thin D2 knife that was sharpened very coarsely (120 girt belt). In that test the knife cut for almost forever and lost sharpness slowly.
I think that chipping is less of an issue when you have a ragged edge in the first place. So with a coarse sharpening slicer that is extremely thin the only reason you wouldn't want a high wear resistance steel is for tip toughness and/or ease of sharpening (though even that is less of an issue with a thin edge).
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M2 has high edge stability because the carbide volume was low, the fine grain size of course contributes. If it had 20% carbide volume with an ASTM grain size of 115 (yes I'm just making up a huge number, and as you know bigger is finer) then it would have low edge stability.
There are many factors that contribute to edge stability, but I stand by my statement that carbide size and volume is generally the most important one assuming the quality of the forging and heat treatment is high.
Regarding the razor blades - Gillette, Schick, Bic and most of the big ones use 13C26, AEB-L or material from that family with exceptionally small carbides and clean microstructure (good metallurgy) to avoid that carbides (or non metallic inclusions) are removed from the edge during grinding because this would be found in their quality check and it would else be noticed by the guy shaving with the shaver. The demands here are exceptionall. They also need the extra wear resistance, the tempering resistance and the corrosion resistance of the chromium alloyed steel to get the best quality razor blades. Traditionally razorblades were produced in 1095 or similar - and they still are in many parts of the world.
I have a couple of Sabatier knives (one carbon and one low carbon stainless) to compare with my Frosts. The carbon one takes an edge pretty good, but it dulls pretty fast. The low carbon stainless I assume it is similar to 420HC (but with german production 1.4116) is more difficult to get a really good edge on. My feeling is that there is a pretty strict line around 56HRC / 0,5C where the chromium steels really drops in performance - probably true also for other knife steels.
I have a couple of Sabatier knives (one carbon and one low carbon stainless) to compare with my Frosts. The carbon one takes an edge pretty good, but it dulls pretty fast. The low carbon stainless I assume it is similar to 420HC (but with german production 1.4116) is more difficult to get a really good edge on. My feeling is that there is a pretty strict line around 56HRC / 0,5C where the chromium steels really drops in performance - probably true also for other knife steels.
Just to let you know:
I wretchedly crawfished and bought Shun's Elite SG-0404 8" Chef's knife. I know ... I know ... $200 for the same problems I groused about on the Santoku. Trouble is, I think I understand SG2 steel now, and dumb as it sounds, its handle will match the Santoku in my knife block.
The decision maker was watching the bidding wars on ebay over the old forged carbon chef's knives ... simply amazing!
gunmike1, your gyuto really had my mouth watering, but it was too much like my Santoku.
I wretchedly crawfished and bought Shun's Elite SG-0404 8" Chef's knife. I know ... I know ... $200 for the same problems I groused about on the Santoku. Trouble is, I think I understand SG2 steel now, and dumb as it sounds, its handle will match the Santoku in my knife block.
The decision maker was watching the bidding wars on ebay over the old forged carbon chef's knives ... simply amazing!
gunmike1, your gyuto really had my mouth watering, but it was too much like my Santoku.