Explain Limited Productions

Dealer exclusives seem to get multiple batches, but are not considered Limited Editions.I know Spyderco and BM uses this model EX:Spyderco C81GPOR2 PM2 Orange and BM 810-1401.I don't remember if Kai has run a dealer Exclusive.I usually Buy the standard production version and if I like it,then I will target the LE...This was my reasoning to target and Acquire a 0801CF.More and more of the desirable bells and whistles like carbon fiber and cutting edge super steels are being incorporated into standard production models.I believe this is a direct result of LE releases and the willingness of the the consumer to pay a premium.Some of the features that demand a premium besides rarity to the collector are being integrated into production models.EX:BM 940-1, ZT 0562CF which are/going to be full blown production to my knowledge.I agree with poolhustler's post above.
 
I see two types of limited editions, a truly new design, and what is more common these days, simply putting on a different handle scale and upgraded blade steel. Production cost/efficiency wise I'd imagine they are very different animals. Take the 801, or 0560 series, those models both offer high end limited editions and general production models, so you can make a case that much of the R&D/design/production/tooling cost is offset by sales of the general production model. Where a model like the 0777 was never put into mass production the costs of R&D, tooling, etc. were no doubt much greater per knife.

I'd bet most of those second type of limited edition knives sit in safes, or bought to resell at profit. When is the last time you saw a 0777 that looked like it had actually been used? How many "as new" hinderers show up for sale every day. No one would pay $600 for a CF/S90 PM2 if they could get them for MSRP, much less MAP. So that's a very small group of buyers compared to a $100-$200 customer base.

The second type is the ones that really baffle me. Take the sprint PM2's, Mule, there's obviously a HUGE gap between production and demand. The secondary market prices for limited/sprint PM2's are RIDICULOUS. There's no additional fit/finish quality, it's not a numbered series, all you get is a different color handle and upgraded blade steel, so the only additional cost to the company is obtaining/fitting/grinding better steel. That would seem relatively easy to increase production on, unless S90/204 etc. is really that hard to get a hold of in larger quantities and it may be. So production could be increased significantly, prices could easily stay the same or take a moderate increase, generating much more profit on that model. That would seem a win/win for the company, but if it were that easy they'd probably be doing it, although I think we're seeing some of that happening.....

On the positive side, I believe this issue has shown manufacturers that more people will pay for premium materials and we're seeing more knives with premium blade steel etc. being moved into general production (940-1, 0562CF, etc).

However, time will tell how that REALLY works out. Just because a knife is listed as "general production" does not mean supply will keep up with demand. It might end up like some of the limited editions, where they are not discontinued but no one knows when or if we'll see another batch, ala the PM2 M390, and rumor that the 940-1 will not ship more units this year. If that turns out to be the case, for the customer they might as well be limited editions because supply will be low, demand will be huge, and secondary market prices will still be ridiculous.
 
ToddM said:
I see two types of limited editions, a truly new design, and what is more common these days, simply putting on a different handle scale and upgraded blade steel. Production cost/efficiency wise I'd imagine they are very different animals. Take the 801, or 0560 series, those models both offer high end limited editions and general production models, so you can make a case that much of the R&D/design/production/tooling cost is offset by sales of the general production model. Where a model like the 0777 was never put into mass production the costs of R&D, tooling, etc. were no doubt much greater per knife.

I'd bet most of those second type of limited edition knives sit in safes, or bought to resell at profit. When is the last time you saw a 0777 that looked like it had actually been used? How many "as new" hinderers show up for sale every day. No one would pay $600 for a CF/S90 PM2 if they could get them for MSRP, much less MAP. So that's a very small group of buyers compared to a $100-$200 customer base.

The second type is the ones that really baffle me. Take the sprint PM2's, Mule, there's obviously a HUGE gap between production and demand. The secondary market prices for limited/sprint PM2's are RIDICULOUS. There's no additional fit/finish quality, it's not a numbered series, all you get is a different color handle and upgraded blade steel, so the only additional cost to the company is obtaining/fitting/grinding better steel. That would seem relatively easy to increase production on, unless S90/204 etc. is really that hard to get a hold of in larger quantities and it may be. So production could be increased significantly, prices could easily stay the same or take a moderate increase, generating much more profit on that model. That would seem a win/win for the company, but if it were that easy they'd probably be doing it, although I think we're seeing some of that happening.....

On the positive side, I believe this issue has shown manufacturers that more people will pay for premium materials and we're seeing more knives with premium blade steel etc. being moved into general production (940-1, 0562CF, etc).

However, time will tell how that REALLY works out. Just because a knife is listed as "general production" does not mean supply will keep up with demand. It might end up like some of the limited editions, where they are not discontinued but no one knows when or if we'll see another batch, ala the PM2 M390, and rumor that the 940-1 will not ship more units this year. If that turns out to be the case, for the customer they might as well be limited editions because supply will be low, demand will be huge, and secondary market prices will still be ridiculous.
Click to expand...
:thumbup:
 
Scurvy092 said:
It's just an example. Chevy loses money on every Volt due to the cost of the batteries.

What makes you think there was no R&D involved? You can be damn sure a knife like the ZT0777 had a TON of R&D in it. Not to mention all of the tooling costs, programming machines, orders from vendors you might not normally deal with, having to stop production on a particular knife to do a run of the limited editions (usually a knife with a much higher profit margin). All that raises the costs of production.
Click to expand...

I never said once that there was no R&D involved. Infact I specifically said that ZT has done their R&D for that knife. Exactly the reason why it makes 0 sense to make limited production knives. They have to capitalize on all that R&D they invested into that knife.
 
JOELSM said:
Just cause a business is doing something doesn't necessarily make it good business. In this case, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I'd think they would make more money selling more knives rather than drumming up interest. I was interested in the 801cf, but due to the limited number that's not going to happen. I'm not buying another ZT in Lieu of the 801cf, I have a 10/22 that needs new parts...that's where my 801cf funds will be spent instead.
Click to expand...

I agree with your thinking. I had started showing interest in ZT after a year or so when they started producing knives. But it's always the same old story ( like is being discussed here) - so it makes it a real simple decision for me. I don't buy their knives. And it's a shame. As a customer that is the only way I can show that I'm not pleased with the way they do business. They're doing fine without me. ;-)
 
You have to think of the LE editions of any product like this, it equates positive exposure to the general public which generates future sales for the company involved. It's a gamble for the company because they are betting they will see increased sales of their line of products in general. It gives them added exposure without extra advertising which cost money. It also gives the company a vote of confidence to the public that they are up with the times and doing well. When you think about a product purchase, it is associated with what you've read, saw or what someone said about that product. What a company like KAI wants, is their product in every major chain store, local hardware and mom&pop store in the country. Now, the average person looks at a Kershaw in a store and can associate KAI/Kershaw/ZT and conclude that is a good product. If we, as knife people have seen the quality of knife companies fall off and avoid those brands, I would think companies like KAI also see what is changing in the knife world and capitalize from it. Hence, a LE of a superior material, good designed knife will start the feeding frenzy that makes money.
 
I don't think it is for malicious or disingenuous reasons as some people seem to think.

Sometimes companies will do it to test or try out a small production run of a steel/design to see how difficult production might be, and how much demand there is for the product. There is a danger in making large runs of knives with uncommon attributes (e.g. "higher" end steel, different handle materials, colors, etc.) in that perhaps the demand might not meet the supply. Spyderco did a run of G-10 Endura's and Delica's and - despite all sorts of forum talk about how much we wanted them - they didn't sell out. I can clearly remember G-10 Endura's getting discounted to $70 after being on the market for a while.

Production capacity is the limiting factor for many companies. They can spend their time making knife A (which is a known value and sells well) or they could spend their time making knife B (which is an unknown value which may or may not sell as well). It makes more financial sense to make large quantities of knife A rather than knife B. Should the company decide to make knife B, it would be a good idea to "test the waters" by only doing a small run--perhaps a run of 500 knife B's.

Now imagine yourself as a knife manufacturer that makes a large run of knife B, say, 5,000 knives. You will need to sell those knives - typically to a dealer - who pays for large batches of knives up front. I would think that a dealer is going to be more hesitant to buy 500 of these knives (which have both a larger upfront investment and a larger cost for the customer) since there is the very real danger that they may not be able to sell all 500. If they know that consumers will buy all 500, then of course they will do so, but there is no guarantee that such a thing will occur. There is more safety for them if knife B has been made in a small batch of 500 knives (rather than 5,000) since there will be fewer knives - thus increasing rarity - and they will have a lower amount of risk if they don't sell all of their knives (they buy 50 of these rather than 500).
 
Last edited:
Excellent points and reasons shared. There's many reasons why they do what they do but the guy who missed out has a right to vent and wish things were different.

The guy who went to BLADE and saw the knife he wanted in person... Waits an entire year, maybe even two, or three... Dreaming about the thing, talking about it in the forums...Knife is released, no preorders comes through for him... If he wants one that bad, he has to pay up to twice the MSRP if he can even find one. It does kind of suck when you look at it on a personal level. I can't believe someone here labels that as selfish. Not everyone are collectors buddy.
 
Stays Sharp said:
Excellent points and reasons shared. There's many reasons why they do what they do but the guy who missed out has a right to vent and wish things were different.

The guy who went to BLADE and saw the knife he wanted in person... Waits an entire year, maybe even two, or three... Dreaming about the thing, talking about it in the forums...Knife is released, no preorders comes through for him... If he wants one that bad, he has to pay up to twice the MSRP if he can even find one. It does kind of suck when you look at it on a personal level. I can't believe someone here labels that as selfish. Not everyone are collectors buddy.
Click to expand...

If you go BLADE and see something for the first time, there is no reason your preorder shouldn't come through. You might want to try a different dealer. The first time I saw the 0600 and the 0801cf, I e-mailed my dealer within 5 minutes. Got both knives with no issues.
 
oharal said:
It makes me sad that this thread comes up literally after every single limited edition Kai product sells out. People get mad and have to scapegoat someone (namely the company or the retailers) for why they didn't get a knife and others did. The bottom line is Kai does this because it makes them more money in one way or another. Thomas has said it on multiple occasions why they do these runs at all and why they can't be made regular production. Rest assured, if this was bad business, Kai would have no part in it. After all, we're talking about one of the biggest knife manufacturers (if not the biggest?) in the world. They've been around 40 years because they are good at it and the things they do make money.

It's strange to me that some people think that it should be easy to collect all the limited editions they like. Frankly it may even be a bit selfish. There have been countless knives I was unable to get my hands on before the price shot up. Some I paid up for secondary market price and others I had no choice but to give up on. Its better to move on then to make a big deal out of it because knife collecting should be fun not troublesome.

Anyway I think at this point we have beaten the subject to death...it might be time to file this subject in the same use the search functiondrawer with "what knife steel is best" or "what knife should I get for self defense"...

End rant/ramble :)
Click to expand...

Good points made throughout your assesment... thanks for your input. Here's an article from ZT's Director of Sales and Marketing, Thomas Welk, where he discusses ZT's LE knives.
http://zt.kaiusaltd.com/blog/inside-a-zt-limited-run
 
Last edited:
addylo said:
Simple law of supply and demand. More demand and less supply equals high price.

And yes, you could argue that if they would cut the price and make more available they could make more money. That simply falls to a business decision.
Click to expand...

Don't confuse secondary pricing with manufacturer profit.

Distributer and dealer cost are much different.

I think the 0777 project was a bomb and I think the big money for Kershaw is in the lower price stuff.

Just guessing of course.
 
Scurvy092 said:
If you go BLADE and see something for the first time, there is no reason your preorder shouldn't come through. You might want to try a different dealer. The first time I saw the 0600 and the 0801cf, I e-mailed my dealer within 5 minutes. Got both knives with no issues.
Click to expand...

I was just creating a scenario. I'm sure anything theoretical I make can have a quick no issues theoretical solution. "You waited ten minutes? Do it in 5! That's why you missed out". The situation wasn't the point, the human/customer element was. Personally, I'm like you: good at acquiring LE's so I couldn't come up with a better one but time and again there are those guys who miss out. The blame is partly on them of course but the lesser or rarer the LE is, the more "painful" it is for more fans. And yes knives are supposed to be "fun"...That's why I am into them- I enjoy the hobby... We all gotta admit that first finding out about an awesome "be all end all" knife is FUN... Finding out that it's gonna be hard to acquire due to personal circumstances and then missing out after looking forward to it takes some fun out of it. Not everyone can have them. Part of the appeal, but also part of the disappointment to some.

I fully understand the difficulties and the decisions these companies make and am not complaining. I didnt even miss out. Just trying to make sense of the other side.
 
Stays Sharp said:
I was just creating a scenario. I'm sure anything theoretical I make can have a quick no issues theoretical solution. "You waited ten minutes? Do it in 5! That's why you missed out". The situation wasn't the point, the human/customer element was. Personally, I'm like you: good at acquiring LE's so I couldn't come up with a better one but time and again there are those guys who miss out. The blame is partly on them of course but the lesser or rarer the LE is, the more "painful" it is for more fans. And yes knives are supposed to be "fun"...That's why I am into them- I enjoy the hobby... We all gotta admit that first finding out about an awesome "be all end all" knife is FUN... Finding out that it's gonna be hard to acquire due to personal circumstances and then missing out after looking forward to it takes some fun out of it. Not everyone can have them. Part of the appeal, but also part of the disappointment to some.

I fully understand the difficulties and the decisions these companies make and am not complaining. I didnt even miss out. Just trying to make sense of the other side.
Click to expand...

Where does it say knives are supposed to be fun ?

I thought they were tools.
 
bigmark408 said:
Where does it say knives are supposed to be fun ?

I thought they were tools.
Click to expand...

It was an acknowledgement to a poster who was encouraging the folks to have fun with the hobby and don't be so angry for missing out so I just rolled with it.

They are tools, been that way all my life. Then it became a hobby for me. Fixing cars, shooting, using/fondling/buying/sharpening knives, and scuba diving are some of my hobbies. Hobbies are for my enjoyment. For fun.

Don't know about you, didn't you buy three 801CF's? Why do you need three of the same exact tool? If it ain't for fun then you're gonna use all three of them? Or maybe for prosperity??? Making easy money off tools should be fun. You tell me.
 
Last edited:
Stays Sharp said:
It was an acknowledgement to a poster who was encouraging the folks to have fun with the hobby and don't be so angry for missing out so I just rolled with it.

They are tools, been that way all my life. Then it became a hobby for me. Fixing cars, shooting, using/fondling/buying/sharpening knives, and scuba diving are some of my hobbies. Hobbies are for my enjoyment. For fun.

Don't know about you, didn't you buy three 801CF's? Why do you need three of the same exact tool? If it ain't for fun then you're gonna use all three of them? Or maybe for prosperity??? Making money is fun.
Click to expand...

I bought 4 because I could....had the opportunity. ... sold 3 to share in the wealth, made a couple bucks, nothing worth bragging about.

If I would have sold you one for cost 330 plus cali tax, shipping, paypal fees would you be my friend.

Hobbies are suppose to be fun but it's not a perfect world.
 
Last edited:
It's interesting that Welk, in the link above, doesn't give any insight into why they do LEs. They're not obliged to share their business models or reasoning, but it would be interesting to know, from their perspective, what drives the decisions.
 
I look at ZT as more of a mid-tech knife-maker like Strider, Chris Reeve, and Hinderer. Yes, they are owned by KAI, but their mode of production and attention to detail sets them apart from standard production knives, IMO. And all of those makers are accused of charging too much and limiting production runs. The beat goes on.
 
because the knife collecters that are out there want the knifes that are limted. it makes there collection that much better. just look at case knifes. they do it big time.
 
HappyDaddy said:
It's interesting that Welk, in the link above, doesn't give any insight into why they do LEs. They're not obliged to share their business models or reasoning, but it would be interesting to know, from their perspective, what drives the decisions.
Click to expand...

Well, he has said plenty of times on the forums as have other manufacturers that they make them as "boutique" pieces to appease the high end collectors. It's not necessary to get overly philosophical on the matter. For example, as new steels are made available and have potential for cutlery steel, they may make a knife to show the properties of said steel (Spyderco Mule team). Or a designer that is about to do a collaboration may request a specific steel be used for that product (Phil Wilson/Spyderco Southerfork).

You are right, they are under no obligation to share anything, but it seems that when companies do share information a segment gets bitter, pissed off, and campaigns to smack talk at every opportunity. There is almost a sense of entitlement from some people that you can clearly see. But again, that represents other underlying issues with those individuals I'm sure. In the end, I think what drives their decisions can be broken into a few reasons. To ultimately to make the customer happy and keep their business, to show off new technology such as composite blade pieces, or new machining, and to introduce new materials, offer options as their competitors do, and have physical and functional resume of design and engineering developments.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top