F. Dick German made Sharpening Steels?

[JD Spydo]

Ceramic rod vs traditional grooved (ribbed) steels

I have re-visited Todd's SEM study on steeling https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2018/08/22/what-does-steeling-do-part-1/

Unlike traditional honing rods that are mainly effective on mainstream blades, ceramic rods have shown effective in "steeling" high hardness vanadium steel blade - S30V in Todd's study. A quote:

"Traditional honing rods do not have sharp protrusions, and the metal swarf found on the surface is observed as flattened or smeared patches of metal. This type of metal removal (or transfer) is generally termed adhesive wear. Adhesive wear occurs at points of very high pressure that occur when the contact area is very small.

Ceramic “steels” have become common and are often preferred to traditional ribbed knife steel. Although these ceramics are composed of micro-sized sintered grains, the surfaces are relatively smooth and do not display a “grit-like” texture. These rods appear to remove metal predominantly via adhesive wear rather than abrasive wear (grinding)."

The following 2 SEM images taken by Todd are of the same carbon blade steeled with a grooved (ribbed) steel as compared to "steeled" with ceramic rod

Grooved steeling

Ceramic rod steeling

Though they look quite similar, showing an improved apex and micro-bevel, the traditional steel does it cleaner, while the ceramic rod creates scuffing on both sides of the edge - and where the presentation cut is important, traditional steel is preferred.

But this discussion should not diminish importance of gentle smooth steeling - smooth steeling have shown especially good sharpness recovery on knives of HRC 58+
Softer knives of HRC 55-56 perform better with more frequent grooved (abrasive) steeling, while harder knives of HRC 57-58 perform better with more of smooth steeling (of common meat professional knives it is SWIBO).
E.g meat plant operators smooth-steel after every 10 cuts about 10 times before they use a grooved steel.
There is the best ratio of smooth-to-grooved steeling for a given hardness, e.g. for HRC 55-56 knives it is 10:1, while for HRC 58 it may be 20:1.

That's some of the most interesting information that has been put on this thread. Especially with the huge amount of ceramic steels ( actually sharpening rods) that have hit the market and have had more than modest success. I got my first set of Lansky ceramic sharpening rods ( steels) back in 2001 at an Arkansas Knife show where Lansky themselves were demonstrating them. I must admit that in the field especially they truly have their place and really are handy. I think some of the newest ceramic units we've seen have indeed gotten better over time and have had to because of the intense market competition. I think the best is yet to come in the ceramic sharpening steel/rods.

Another most interesting point you made is your comment on the use of Smooth Steels. Over at the Spyderco.com forum recently we had Ed Schempp comment extensively on smooth sharpening steels. As you all know Mr. Schempp is a great knife designer and has designed quite a few of Spyderco's successful knives. He commented on Smooth Steels and the value of their "Burnishing" effects on an already sharp blade. I've even had some success recently sharpening my Spyderco M390 Military model and I used my F. Dick Poliron ( very smooth/polished steel) and did several strokes with it after I had already got it shaving sharp and it did indeed improve the edge. It literally floated through paper doing a regular sharpness test>> but after using the F. Dick Poliron it was like using a high tech laser beam cutting the test paper.

That's why I did this thread because I don't think that these sharpening steels or butcher steels as many like to call them are antiquated at all. I do think they can be great sharpening tools if used correctly. However I'm finding that very few people actually know how to use them correctly. It does take practice to get your angle correct and not every sharpening steel is good in all circumstances. But I do thank you KG for putting that vital information up for all of us to consider.

 

[wootzblade]

Appreciate your positive feedback.
I thought I am too old to be pleased, but no. Thank you

 

[JD Spydo]

Another aspect of these high quality sharpening steels is that they might actually be the perfect deburring tool if used properly. Also I'm getting convinced that the ribbed steels and I know that there is a wide variety of those ridged or ribbed sharpening steels might just be right for Micro-abrasion for blades that have accrued some minor dents or dings thus saving a user from a major overhaul of a sharpening job.

I also wonder if F. Dick and other manufacturers of high quality sharpening steels haven't considered using really fine diamond in conjunction with a grooved sharpening steel thus enhancing it's honing ability?

 

[wootzblade]

That's it - what the traditional grooved/ribbed steels strike with is their burr-free honing action - they seem to deburr as they hone.
This is seen on Todd's SEM images, and makes them unique as compared to ceramic and diamond rods.
My friend butcher actually always deburrs his sharpened knives by steeling them.

BTW, don't you find it interesting that European nations prefer to call these steels "grooved", while Americans "ribbed" - reflects something deep in the mentality, like passive-active, feminine-masculine, yin-yang

 

[JD Spydo]

That's it - what the traditional grooved/ribbed steels strike with is their burr-free honing action - they seem to deburr as they hone.
This is seen on Todd's SEM images, and makes them unique as compared to ceramic and diamond rods.

BTW, don't you find it interesting that European nations prefer to call these steels "grooved", while Americans "ribbed" - reflects something deep in the mentality, like passive-active, feminine-masculine, yin-yang

Yeah there is a lot of disparity at how our European Brothers describe things. The Brits for instance call a Television a "Telly" and if I remember correctly they also had a weird name for telephones too. And Europeans across the board have all kinds of quaint sayings and weird descriptions of stuff.

But on the other hand we Americans could learn some serious quality control from our super smart German Brothers. Because there are so many German made items I have in my home that are super quality. I unfortunately can't say that very seriously about many USA made items compared to German or Swiss made items. Oh we have some good quality stuff like Spyderco for instance but they are the exception rather than the rule unfortunately. But I do look for that to turn around at some point.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

That's it - what the traditional grooved/ribbed steels strike with is their burr-free honing action - they seem to deburr as they hone.
This is seen on Todd's SEM images, and makes them unique as compared to ceramic and diamond rods.

BTW, don't you find it interesting that European nations prefer to call these steels "grooved", while Americans "ribbed" - reflects something deep in the mentality, like passive-active, feminine-masculine, yin-yang

I've always seen steels referred to as grooved rather than ribbed.

 

[JD Spydo]

I've always seen steels referred to as grooved rather than ribbed.

That's another item of discussion I would like to explore. yeah a lot of F. Dick's sharpening steels have ridged or ribbed extrusions on their steels. Some of those ridges are coarse whereas some of them are like "micro-ridges". So I wonder what the objective and/or advantage the different sized ridges have to offer? I would think that the fine ribs would be there to strictly fine tune an already sharp edge for instance? But F. Dick offers a wide array of these different sized ridges on different models of their sharpening steels and I'm not sure what is intended for each different type?

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Just think of steels as being like files with the teeth running 90° to their usual orientation relative to the length.

 

[ToddS]

I've not seen any evidence that ribbed steel is abrasive like a file. The surfaces of the ribs I examined were smooth. I'm fairly certain the only purpose of the ribs/grooves is to reduce the contact area and increase the local pressure (which increases the rate of metal removal).

 

[Spideyjg]

That's another item of discussion I would like to explore. yeah a lot of F. Dick's sharpening steels have ridged or ribbed extrusions on their steels. Some of those ridges are coarse whereas some of them are like "micro-ridges". So I wonder what the objective and/or advantage the different sized ridges have to offer? I would think that the fine ribs would be there to strictly fine tune an already sharp edge for instance? But F. Dick offers a wide array of these different sized ridges on different models of their sharpening steels and I'm not sure what is intended for each different type?

Depends the "cut". The full groove, typical steel, is their coarse, they have fine, Sapphire, and smooth rods. All have a place but my goto are the oval coarse at stage 1, the Multicut flat at the end.

Be nice to see what effect each has under an electron microscope but can't find one in a Cracker Jack box.

 

[wootzblade]

I've not seen any evidence that ribbed steel is abrasive like a file. The surfaces of the ribs I examined were smooth. I'm fairly certain the only purpose of the ribs/grooves is to reduce the contact area and increase the local pressure (which increases the rate of metal removal).

This explains their remarkable burr-free honing action. Thank you Todd

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I've not seen any evidence that ribbed steel is abrasive like a file. The surfaces of the ribs I examined were smooth. I'm fairly certain the only purpose of the ribs/grooves is to reduce the contact area and increase the local pressure (which increases the rate of metal removal).

By my statement I don't mean they're literally toothed in the same manner as a file. Rather that the difference in the coarseness of the grooves functions similarly to different cuts with files and coarser cut steels will remove more metal than finer ones will. It's analogous.

 

[JD Spydo]

Depends the "cut". The full groove, typical steel, is their coarse, they have fine, Sapphire, and smooth rods. All have a place but my goto are the oval coarse at stage 1, the Multicut flat at the end.

Be nice to see what effect each has under an electron microscope but can't find one in a Cracker Jack box.

And that's what is really cool about the German made F. Dick sharpening steels. They have such a wide selection of different cuts, styles and different gauges and thicknesses of ribs. I still maintain that the F. Dick "Multi-Cut" is the most interesting and versatile sharpening steel I've ever owned. I love to experiment with it and try different methods with it because it's really about 7 steels in one tool. I've not yet tried any of their diamond sharpening steels but one chef I got to chat with from the Knife Merchant ( a dealer who sells F. Dick) said it was a great diamond rod and he had used several of them to compare with.

De-burring is just one thing I think these steels are good for. I do believe they are the best sharpening steels on the market and I'm going to make it a point to try out some of their knives and other items. The company seems like everything that they make is great quality overall.

 

[Old-School]

There's a few guys at work with pre war (WW2) f dick steels,(the arrow points to the handle instead of to the tip of the steel) getting pretty rare these days but shows the quality.​

Having been a slaughterman pulling 5-6 day weeks for the last 17 straight years on what's probably Australia's fastest single chain slaughter floor operating at 178 head/hour, there's only 1 brand of steel I use and it's F. DICK and if it ain't pre-war it ain't worth using. "They don't make 'em like they used to" rings true here, I have a small collection of pre-war steels, 14', 12' rounds and a 12' flat and they'd be worth more to me than a millionaire's collection of sport cars. As for knives, I have 3 favourite makes... 1. Victorinox Swibo, 2. F. Dick and 3. Solingen. High carbon all the way, easy to sharpen and holds an edge all day... also, I'm not one for hollow grinding my knives. I work with a lot of blokes that are hollow grinding those New Zealand made VICTORY skinning knives... I've used them and yeah... if you really want to work for your $$ then be my guest but I like my knives to do the hard yards and I'll stick with Victorinox Swibo, F.Dick and Solingen for the rest of my working life. As for steels, I won't touch those fancy new modern Replicas. Pre-war all the way!

 

[Alberta Ed]

I use an smooth oval burnishing rod @ 63-65 HRC for a honing steel. A car or truck engine valve stem would work equally well -- you can often get one free from a local machine shop that rebuilds motors.

 

[ToddS]

....there's only 1 brand of steel I use and it's F. DICK and if it ain't pre-war it ain't worth using. "They don't make 'em like they used to" rings true here, I have a small collection of pre-war steels, 14', 12' rounds and a 12' flat ...

I'm curious, do you think these old steels are better simply because of age and use giving them a particularly effective surface? The only old steeling rods I've come across have a heavy patina, if not full rust. Also, are these grooved or smooth?

 

[Old-School]

I'm curious, do you think these old steels are better simply because of age and use giving them a particularly effective surface? The only old steeling rods I've come across have a heavy patina, if not full rust. Also, are these grooved or smooth?

Hi mate, they're better because they're a lot harder than anything made today. Pre-war steels are low background steel, as is any steep produced before the detonation of the 1st nuclear weapons in 1945. Any steel produced after the nukes were detonated is now unfortunately contaminated with radionuclides. All old steels can be restored, mine when I first came across them were the same... heavily ages and water marked and virtually useless but after a sand and polish they come up with a mirror finish... completely smooth. I then cut some lines in with 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper and then very finely smooth them over with a single pass of 1200 grit. You then have the best knife honing steel you can use. I'm about to head to work now but I'll show you some photos of my restored pre-war F. DICK steels this afternoon. They look like brand new.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Hi mate, they're better because they're a lot harder than anything made today. Pre-war steels are low background steel, as is any steep produced before the detonation of the 1st nuclear weapons in 1945. Any steel produced after the nukes were detonated is now unfortunately contaminated with radionuclides. All old steels can be restored, mine when I first came across them were the same... heavily ages and water marked and virtually useless but after a sand and polish they come up with a mirror finish... completely smooth. I then cut some lines in with 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper and then very finely smooth them over with a single pass of 1200 grit. You then have the best knife honing steel you can use. I'm about to head to work now but I'll show you some photos of my restored pre-war F. DICK steels this afternoon. They look like brand new.

Old steels are not harder than anything made today. Most off-the-shelf steels these days are just made using low-grade steel and heat treatment and have poorly cut grooves to them, relying on a hard chrome plating to impart hardness to the steel, and causing it to overall just not perform as well as a properly-made one, but F. Dick still makes very hard and high quality butcher's steels, and files besides. The whole radiation thing is a total non-sequitur that has nothing to do with the quality of the product.

 

[ToddS]

Old steels are not harder than anything made today. Most off-the-shelf steels these days are just made using low-grade steel and heat treatment and have poorly cut grooves to them, relying on a hard chrome plating to impart hardness to the steel, and causing it to overall just not perform as well as a properly-made one, but F. Dick still makes very hard and high quality butcher's steels, and files besides. The whole radiation thing is a total non-sequitur that has nothing to do with the quality of the product.

There's an old "story" I've read about vintage iron mined from certain parts of the world (eg from a meteor) that produces harder steel because it is higher purity than any iron available today presumably due to recycling. Iron is very difficult to purify, and is surprisingly expensive to purchase in high purity. Coincidently, the people who have told this story are also in the business of selling vintage razors or knives made from pre-war munition shells.

 

[Old-School]

Old steels are not harder than anything made today. Most off-the-shelf steels these days are just made using low-grade steel and heat treatment and have poorly cut grooves to them, relying on a hard chrome plating to impart hardness to the steel, and causing it to overall just not perform as well as a properly-made one, but F. Dick still makes very hard and high quality butcher's steels, and files besides. The whole radiation thing is a total non-sequitur that has nothing to do with the quality of the product.

Anyone in this industry as long as me and longer will disagree with you but each to their own.