Factory edge angle information?

rustyblades

rustyblades

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Is there a post or do we know what the factory edge is for CRK and McNees knives?

Specifically:

Sebenza Large and Small 31 S45VN
Umnumzaan MagnaCut
Mac PM2 3.5 MagnaCut
Mac PM2 3.5 and 3.0 S20V

Thank you for any information.
 
I believe that CRK recommends sharpening (with a Sharpmaker) at 20 degrees per side. I've never measured the factory angle.
 
It'll have to be checked by a sharpening system.

There's always a variation from side to side. With every knife being different.

Averaged between the two readings and that'd be the approximate factory edge angle. Reliable enough to record.
 
On the website, CRK says 18 to 20 dps. Of course, they are convex, so when I flatten them into a V edge, I take the most obtuse angle that gets underneath all of that factory roundness.

I find that the large Sebenzas in particular are quite consistent. 20 dps is very close, but might still leave remnants of the factory edge at the base of the edge bevel. 19 or 19.5 would get you really close.

Not sure about the other knives you listed.
 
I don't have Sebenza but handled few of them. Never noticed convex edge on a factory new folder,
if you don't mind - what model should have that edge M Modernflame ?

Aside of my question, this is what I got, hope it'll help:

CgmkI3.jpg
 
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My new McNees PM2 3.5 was roughly 19 dps before I sharpened it the first time. This is according to the Axicube on my K03, and honestly, I alway check a new knife but don't get detailed about it.
 
Grasshopperglock said:
There's always a variation from side to side. With every knife being different.
Click to expand...

True. The angles might also vary along the edge.

Looking at one spot on the edge of my Large Sebenza 31 UG, one side looks convex from about 18 to 29 degrees. The other side seems to be convex with no well-defined shoulder and no well-defined apex. You could call it convex from 5 to 40 degrees looking at the full spread of reflections on the laser goniometer, or you could look at the brighest segment of reflections and call it maybe 15 to 25 degrees.

Looking at a different spot on the edge, a few mms away, it looks like 15 to 25 degrees on one side and 10 to 35 degrees on the other side, or maybe 15 to 28 degrees.

Looking at a third spot, it looks almost V-shaped at 30 degrees one side, 35 degrees the other.
 
Sharpie on the edge. Rubbed with either 220 or 400Grit. I prefer 400.

Adjust until you can rub the Sharpie off, in one rub, from the apex to the heel of the edge grind. Flip the knife over. Luck of the cards because the other side is judged by the first.


First one is a winner. Whatever it reads. Grind the other side the same.

Edges above 18° kinda suck for slicing. 20° is industrial. 17° and below will skin paper.

Don't do 15° unless it's on kitchen stuff. The thinner the angle. The more delicate it is.

30 degrees is a lawn mower blade.
 
Grasshopperglock said:
Adjust until you can rub the Sharpie off, in one rub, from the apex to the heel of the edge grind. Flip the knife over. Luck of the cards because the other side is judged by the first.


First one is a winner. Whatever it reads. Grind the other side the same.
Click to expand...
Never adjust the device to match the angle of the blade. If the manufacturers spec is 20°, but the blade is 25° on one side and 19° on the other, adjusting the sharpening guide to one of the bevels randomly then doing both bevels the same will only produce an edge that isn't 20° on either side.
Decide what angle you are going to use first, then set the sharpening device to that angle. Cover the edge with a dark sharpie and have at it until the bevel is consistent and no ink is left. Then do the other side the same way. No guessing or random luck involved, and you get the angles you are looking for if done properly.
.
 
A large Sebenza sharpened more acutely than 18 dps will have an unusually fat edge bevel. The polished blades are a bit more forgiving because they get thinner behind the edge than the stonewashed variety.
 
Having reprofiled the edge on my older Sebenza in S30V, the earlier estimations of CRK's 18-20° per side I think are pretty close. I took mine down to ~15° per side using a compact V-crock sharpener with diamond rods from A.G. Russell, and I noticed the factory edge was just a little wider than the default 30° inclusive setting on my sharpener. Didn't take too long to get it done, even with the small 4" rods on that device. Made a noticeable difference in how that blade cuts. The hollow primary grind above the edge was decently thin from the factory, and narrowing the edge angle a little bit had a big impact on cutting.
 
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rustyblades said:
Is there a post or do we know what the factory edge is for CRK
Click to expand...
Blues said:
I believe that CRK recommends sharpening (with a Sharpmaker) at 20 degrees per side. I've never measured the factory angle.
Click to expand...

"We recommend using the Spyderco Triangle Sharpmaker to maintain the edge on all of our folding knives..."

"We sharpen our folding knives to an 18°-20° angle, so the 40° keyed holes [on the Sharpmaker base] will do just fine."

source: https://chrisreeve.com/blogs/how-tos/how-to-sharpen-a-knife-at-home

rustyblades said:
and McNees knives?
Click to expand...

 
Most if not all of these knives are sharpened by hand on belts, the edge angle can and will vary. With over 40 knives In my collection that I've reprofiled, none had even angles, neither the Spydercos, CRKs or Hinderers. They "aim" for 15 degrees per side but it's rarely that, especially towards the tip. I assume because the tip is dangerous to sharpen on belts because it can catch on the belt and become a hazard really quickly.
POCEH KOCEB said:
Never noticed convex edge on a factory new folder,
if you don't mind - what model should have that edge M Modernflame ?
Click to expand...

Both my Inkosi and 31 had slightly convexed edges, I assume from the deburring/polishing stage. The tips on both were shallower than the rest of the edge, I assume they were being careful not to catch the tip on the belts.
 
Thank you A Arathol and K Kryme , interesting info about the convex bevel... Arathol, I was using the small, fixed Lanski for years and
found it just enough for all my needs, regular stones, diamonds and strop. I went with the simple Wicked Edge because I needed little bit better
fixed angle sharpener capable of putting smaller angles on my harder steels. I have also the extension for "smaller angles"
Also I personally prefer when the blade is attached this way instead of being flat, for number of reasons.
Thanks again Gents !
 
Thank for all of the generous replies. I am working through each and gaining understanding.

POCEH KOCEB said:
What sharpening device are you using if you don't mind ? Just curious.
Im using the "compact" WE but for small angles needed extension for the holding jaws.
Click to expand...

My son and I each have the sharpmaker, and we are new to sharpening the premium blades. Never paid much heed sharpening consumer knives in the past. Got them to shave with a stone, not even sure what grit, and moved on. But it feels wrong to go into the CRK and McNees levels without more knowledge.

I am open to other systems or approaches under $500 all in if the learning curve is not too steep. Only bought the sharpmaker because it looked fool proof to start with.

Also, the micro-bevel and marker approach are interesting, had not thought of that with this kit. I think we both prefer durable edges for a variety of tasks for these folders and so might stay with the wider angle? It would be fun to understand which angles are preferred by experienced users for specific tasks, e.g. box breakdown, carving up sticks, field dressing, meal prep, etc.

Edit: typos
 
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If you're going into higher end knives and intend on using them, it's only natural to invest in maintenance as well. Keep in mind that with any fixed angle system and even freehand sharpening you will take away a decent chunk of material the first time in order to set an even edge. I also advise checking out Neeves Knives video guide on sharpening using fixed angle systems, there's some solid advice that will apply to any system. My top pick being not to go all the way to the end of the stone when sharpening the tip, it's easy to roll the stone and as a consequence roll off the tip. Been there and done that lol.

I've done some experimenting with microbevels, and it ain't for me, or rather I suck at it, my edges just didn't last any longer than with a normal V edge, and they're slightly more difficult to bring back on a strop if at all. Since I'm doing light tasks, mostly food prep I tend to bring my edges up to under 15 degrees (I haven't actually measured it). The thinner a knife is behind the edge the less pressure it requires to cut, and the less wear that puts on the apex (tip of the edge). Downside is, that makes the edge more prone to chipping, some steels just don't like that, others that are more "tough" are absolutely fine. There's always a balance. I recommend first trying to mimic the factory angle, paint the edge using a sharpie and make a couple of light passes, if the sharpie is getting scratched up all the way down to the tip of the edge, you're in business. Otherwise adjust angle accordingly. As I previously mentioned, they're hand sharpened, so the angle won't be consistent throughout the full length of the blade, there's a high probability the other side of the knife won't even be the same angle. Just have to work through it and even it out, it will be much easier next time. This uneven edge is why most people struggle to put a nice edge on a knife on Sharpmakers, they just aren't reaching the apex, and getting frustrated before enough material is removed to matter. Sharpmaker is a fine system to maintain an edge, but the stones are way too fine to remove material quickly. It will eventually happen, but depending on the steel, you're looking at spending a lot of time.

Sorry for the wall of text, usually when I mean to keep it short it ends up being the longest post ever.
 
rustyblades said:
Also, the micro-bevel and marker approach are interesting, had not thought of that with this kit. I think we both prefer durable edges for a variety of tasks for these folders and so might stay with the wider angle?
Click to expand...
Without hijacking the thread with practical sharpening, my view is also that these are different class knives and they require little bit better understanding how to take care of it.

With the time, solely depending on what I do with my working or "collectable" knives, I'm convinced in few general "rules" if you want.
* Geometry cuts. But in order to get to the useful for a work knife angle on specific model you need to know and test few details:
* Type of steel, carbon, SS, powder or whatever the steel is. It'll give you idea what type of stones or diamonds to use. When you test this on particular blade, youll know if water or oil stone works better,
or diamonds, what system to use or to go free hand on a appropriate stone...
* Hardness of the steel you're sharpening and thickness behind the bevel... It'll give you general idea about the angle of the bevel/edge. Some steels are brittle at certain angles, some are not.
I usually test different angles for particular thickness behind the bevel, on particular steels. My CPM154 usually have different angles than my K390 or ZDP blades, but they also have different
thickness behind the blade, so the angles should be within different tolerances per particular steel and heat treatment (hardness)...

Same goes for the high end or mid-tech folders we are talking about here, even those knifes will not see abuse as my Golden Eye, Rat1, GB1, Voyagers and so on...

This place is my primary source of information because it comes from experienced people, not influencers, you can see well done pictures,
explanations and sources to read and educate yourself more on almost any subject you'll ask for.
 
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