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Fake, Clone, Copy, Idea user,

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clearkevin

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Hey Guys
I want to put this question out there even though I know it will cause some drama. I don't want anyone to be a jerk but speak from the heart as I really want to know. I have different feelings about fakes vs clones, vs copies, vs using an idea. I feel the fake is the worst and totally wrong, a clone still sucks but at least people know what they are getting, a copy which I would say differs from a clone by being similar by not an exact replica lacks creativity but is not that big a deal. Then finally using another persons idea. An example of one company doing this is Ganzo but consider that many manufacturers have something close (a copy) to the axis lock. What are your thoughts. Kershaw's lawsuits going on now have me thinking about this, I have a DOC and love it but the lock is kind of Kershaw's idea. What does everyone else think.
PS lets keep the concept of country of manufacture for another discussion
 
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Hey kevin. This would be a good video idea too. I hate fakes or anything that fools people into thinking they are buying the real thing.
 
It appears that Microtech has already designed around the language in the patent on their new knives. I haven't inspected the new variation of the subframelock closely, but it's somehow different. Therefore there will not be any issues going forward (in a legal sense), but it still another jab in the eye to KAI USA. The only remaining issue will be potential backpay on patent infringement. Although I'm sure any resolutions will be behind closed doors.
 
If it's not Your idea or a licensed (legal within the U.S.) version, then I consider it stealing and would prefer to not own a knife over owning the fraudulent version.

If it's not Your idea/design, it's not Yours to make money off of.
 
clearkevin said:
Hey Guys
I want to put this question out there even though I know it will cause some drama. I don't want anyone to be a jerk but speak from the heart as I really want to know. I have different feelings about fakes vs clones, vs copies, vs using an idea. I feel the fake is the worst and totally wrong, a clone still sucks but at least people know what they are getting, a copy which I would say differs from a clone by being similar by not an exact replica lacks creativity but is not that big a deal. Then finally using another persons idea. An example of one company doing this is Ganzo but consider that many manufacturers have something close (a copy) to the axis lock. What are your thoughts. Kershaw's lawsuits going on now have me thinking about this, I have a DOC and love it but the lock is kind of Kershaw's idea. What does everyone else think.
PS lets keep the concept of country of manufacture for another discussion
Click to expand...

Ganzo ticks two boxes. The make clones with counterfeit locks. They advertise using the axis lock. Supporting known counterfeiters hurts the OM company, this hobby, and this community. People who knowingly support counterfeits, clones, or whatever your definition might be are shameful. There's no other way to say it.
 
My thoughts: Counterfeits = criminal. Clones (copy but with a different name) = sleazy business practice and may be criminal if there are copyright/trademark/patent infringements. Strong similarities that have enough variations from an original design may be piggybacking off of someone else's idea, but pretty standard business practice. There are only so many unique innovations you can make in a pocket knife. It's a sharp piece of metal with a handle on it.

"Idea user:" Without a patent or some other legal protection, ideas are hard to officially own. Patent and trademark laws are just that - laws, and must be enforced. Sometimes that means the maker has to be willing to spend time suing people who are infringing. If their pockets are not deep enough to afford the legal fees, then the infringers can get away with it.

The problem seems to come up more often when the idea creator and the idea user are under different legal systems, which often occurs across international boundaries. So the problem is most often seen as a country-related issue. If country A has strong intellectual-property rights that are enforced, and country B either has weak/no protections, or does not have the resource or will to enforce them, then you can have a problem. It is a worse problem for the idea creator in country A if the producers in country B are then allowed to sell their "idea users" to the same markets as the producer in country A.

For me personally - the knives I own came from the name brand companies and not the clone / copy / look-alike makers.
 
Sorta like being almost pregnant, either it is or it aint. I wouldn't spend a dime on such knives, it's not the right thing to do.
 
One of the things that make me wonder is that nearly everyone has a version of the axis lock, it maybe called the arc lock, or the bearing lock, or the wedge lock, or the hawk lock, but essentially it's an axis lock. This seems generally accepted by the knife community.
I have not seen anyone attempt the triad lock but I'm sure someone will figure out a work around to the patent language. At which point CS will sue since they do it for far less.
 
clearkevin said:
One of the things that make me wonder is that nearly everyone has a version of the axis lock, it maybe called the arc lock, or the bearing lock, or the wedge lock, or the hawk lock, but essentially it's an axis lock. This seems generally accepted by the knife community.
I have not seen anyone attempt the triad lock but I'm sure someone will figure out a work around to the patent language. At which point CS will sue since they do it for far less.
Click to expand...

Those locks you mention are legally different enough from the axis lock. From owning multiple of them I can also say the are very different in operation. Way different than Ganzo copying the Axis lock completely and calling it an Axis lock. One is legal in this country, the other is counterfeiting. The line is clear.
 
clearkevin said:
One of the things that make me wonder is that nearly everyone has a version of the axis lock, it maybe called the arc lock, or the bearing lock, or the wedge lock, or the hawk lock, but essentially it's an axis lock. This seems generally accepted by the knife community.
I have not seen anyone attempt the triad lock but I'm sure someone will figure out a work around to the patent language. At which point CS will sue since they do it for far less.
Click to expand...

Those locks are superficially similar to the Axis lock and work on some of the same principles, but they're all mechanically distinct and different. The Arc lock is probably most similar, but the others named are really quite different.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Those locks are superficially similar to the Axis lock and work on some of the same principles, but they're all mechanically distinct and different. The Arc lock is probably most similar, but the others named are really quite different.
Click to expand...

Even the Arc lock is vastly different. It does put a bar in the way of the tang so the blade can't close but how it does that is way different than the Axis lock. I've had it apart and it is more complicated to do essentially the same thing and the reason it is more complicated is to make it legal. Much different than a direct copy with the same name but made out of country and sold through shady methods so the patent laws aren't enforceable.
 
craytab said:
Ganzo ticks two boxes. The make clones with counterfeit locks. They advertise using the axis lock. Supporting known counterfeiters hurts the OM company, this hobby, and this community. People who knowingly support counterfeits, clones, or whatever your definition might be are shameful. There's no other way to say it.
Click to expand...

My thoughts as well.
 
clearkevin said:
One of the things that make me wonder is that nearly everyone has a version of the axis lock, it maybe called the arc lock, or the bearing lock, or the wedge lock, or the hawk lock, but essentially it's an axis lock. This seems generally accepted by the knife community.
I have not seen anyone attempt the triad lock but I'm sure someone will figure out a work around to the patent language. At which point CS will sue since they do it for far less.
Click to expand...

My Marttiini MBL folder has a triad lock, the mechanism is almost the same of my recon 1, it works very well, the spring is not hard as the cold steel but it does its job..
 
NJBillK said:
If it's not Your idea or a licensed (legal within the U.S.) version, then I consider it stealing and would prefer to not own a knife over owning the fraudulent version.

If it's not Your idea/design, it's not Yours to make money off of.
Click to expand...

This.

People get away with it because its so expensive for the manufacturers to defend against that sometimes its not worth it. You see this a lot in the archery industry as well.
 
One more point especially pertaining to the rule of Law comments, when it comes to obedience to the Law I am in favor of it but... there are some exceptions. Sometimes I speed because although anything over 80km/h is against the law I know that enforcement will not kick in till 95-100km/h. My town has a bylaw about burning which I don't always obey. The local enforcement officer pointed out to me that technically a fire is only allowed in town for cooking but she considers warming your fingers cooking :). The point I'm making is that just saying something violates the Law doesn't convince everyone maybe even most. Usually we consider other factors like am I hurting anyone or is this reasonable. I would ask if say SOG is harming Benchmade by using the arc lock and answer probably not much, I would ask the same about Ganzo or Senrenmu. Is the Senrenmu 710 harming CRK? If it's not then I'm not going to get too bent out of shape over it (although I don't really want one). To the commenter above who said there should be a video maybe I will make one based on the conversation here.
 
Kevin I see from your channel that you like Ganzo so I'm not getting the point of this thread. It seems you think it's ok and for me it's not. Simple as that.
 
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