Fake, Clone, Copy, Idea user,

[Seneca18]

Here's the way I see it, yes other companies make knives with liner locks, Axis (style), Reeve Integral (frame lock) etc. but they do so without violating any patents and generally they contribute to the knife community with their original knife designs. Brands like Ganzo and SRM make ZERO effort in this regard, most of their knives can be considered "a poor mans (insert knife here)" and that's the problem. My opinion is companies like this are just lazy, they clearly have the means to produce a decent quality knife, if only they would draw up some original designs.

 

[Sirryacus]

What are the feelings on former employees "technically" stealing trade secrets and essentially going on to create new and exciting brands of their own? I'm not sure everyone would consider such things stealing in the traditional sense but being a former employee of a large company surely gives you a huge leg up against someone starting from scratch.

 

[jc57]

After a patent expires, you can use it freely. It enters the public domain. Trademarks persist as long as the holder continues to use it and to actively protect it, unless it becomes genericized by public usage.

So I can use a liner lock design in a knife. But I can't call it a "Linerlock" if Michael Walker is still protecting that trademark.

 

[craytab]

considering both patent and trademark are currently expired, legally its not theft. i personally dont have a dog in this fight, but its kinda shitty how you all basically tell a guy who obviously support numerous knife companies his actions are shameful and morally wrong. even if these guys are buying exact knock offs or clones, does that make it ok to belittle another person? or for that matter insult me for interjecting facts and true statements?

Benchmade does not consider them expired. Are you a patent lawyer? If they were expired with no fear of repercussions why isn't the market flooded with legit companies producing the axis lock?

And yes, if you support counterfeiting you should be made to feel bad in order to stop a practice that hurts this hobby and our community.

 

[wilsonj1018]

Benchmade does not consider them expired. Are you a patent lawyer? If they were expired with no fear of repercussions why isn't the market flooded with legit companies producing the axis lock?

And yes, if you support counterfeiting you should be made to feel bad in order to stop a practice that hurts this hobby and our community.

no, im not a lawyer of any sort, the information can be readily found by anyone searching for it. both the patent and the trademark are expired, the latter by benchmades own doing. it seems you have overlooked this, and ignorantly judged, and accused people of supporting counterfeiting. now before we continue down this dwindling road of negativity, take a breather and try not to get worked up.

 

[jc57]

The Trademark "AXIS" is still quite active. https://trademarks.justia.com/787/05/axis-78705696.html

 

[clearkevin]

Kevin I see from your channel that you like Ganzo so I'm not getting the point of this thread. It seems you think it's ok and for me it's not. Simple as that.

I don't have a consistent position on this but am very interested to hear what others think about it. To me there seems to be legitimate arguments on both sides with the exception of clones and blatant fakes

 

[wilsonj1018]

The Trademark "AXIS" is still quite active. https://trademarks.justia.com/787/05/axis-78705696.html

axis yes, but axis lock as i stated, no
http://www.tmfile.com/mark/?q=754847187

 

[davek14]

Benchmade does not consider them expired.

Why do you say that?

 

[mtangent]

Every country has an expiration date for patents, to allow innovation & progress.
I agree with that concept. Don't buy copies/stolen designs during the period. Happily let everybody do what they please after the patent expires.
It leads to progress.

 

[Hackenslash]

The Trademark "AXIS" is still quite active. https://trademarks.justia.com/787/05/axis-78705696.html

Yup, you can't call it "Axis" due to trademark protection, but the last patent expired sometime earlier this year, July 17th I think...

Regardless, Ganzo and companies like them only hurt our industry. I'm not going to label and belittle those who choose to conduct business with them, but I'm entirely free to disregard the opinions they may state and disrespect them as a fellow knife hobbyist. Support the industry-shun clones.

 

[craytab]

So if the axis lock patent has expired why are we not seeing a flood of legit companies using the design? It is my understanding that patents can be extended through many methods including small changes or updates. Take your Benchmade the was produced this year and enter the patent number on the blade into google. See what comes up. In all honesty, I believe this matter can only be solved by lawyers and judges. Patent law is very complicated. At the end of the day though, what ganzo does is shameful and those who support what they do hurt our hobby.

axis yes, but axis lock as i stated, no
http://www.tmfile.com/mark/?q=754847187

More legitimizing counterfeits.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

.

Who was the first to come up with the idea of attaching a pocket clip to a folder? Spyderco? So if you buy a knife with a pocket clip from a company other than Spyderco, and that company isn't paying Spyderco royalties, does that make you a bad person?

Even in the middle ages there were clips on warhammers for example. Maybe more of a belt clip than pocket clip but still obvious that spyderco wasn't the first ;-)

http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/pix/warhammer.jpg

 

[davek14]

It is my understanding that patents can be extended through many methods including small changes or updates. Take your Benchmade the was produced this year and enter the patent number on the blade into google. See what comes up. In all honesty, I believe this matter can only be solved by lawyers and judges.

What comes up?

 

[craytab]

What comes up?

Did you do it?

 

[Hackenslash]

So if the axis lock patent has expired why are we not seeing a flood of legit companies using the design? It is my understanding that patents can be extended through many methods including small changes or updates. Take your Benchmade the was produced this year and enter the patent number on the blade into google. See what comes up. In all honesty, I believe this matter can only be solved by lawyers and judges. Patent law is very complicated. At the end of the day though, what ganzo does is shameful and those who support what they do hurt our hobby.

I'm not a lawyer but have been involved in researching patents as part of my job. You are correct that there are lots of ways that patents can be extended, typically by demonstrating a new use or application for the device. Somewhere here on the forums a member with better patent experience than me was able to follow the string of patents and arrived at the latest active date, which happened last July. That's not to say that BM doesn't have action pending to extend their exclusive rights. Anything goes once things get into the hands of lawyers!

In terms of legit companies not offering an Axis lock, I think it makes sense that they aren't (yet). Given the cost to design, prototype and set up assembly for an entirely new knife with a new lock...I can't imagine companies like Spyderco or KAI spending resources until patents have definitely expired. Even then, there's no consensus that the Axis lock is the most desirable lock in the knife world, so many manufacturers may simply choose to not pursue it. I think the proof will be in the pudding over the next few years if legit companies begin to offer "Axis" lock models (not using that name, of course). BTW, I love this write up by Doug Ritter breaking down the benefits of the Axis lock...http://www.dougritter.com/pop_up_axis_lock.htm

Its only the scum buckets like Ganzo that have no regard for law and potential litigation that are already geared up to offer a stolen design feature Ganzo seems to epitomize what is worst in all cloners and counterfeiters; not only stealing patented components but outright copy of design. Yuck.

 

[craytab]

I'm not a lawyer but have been involved in researching patents as part of my job. You are correct that there are lots of ways that patents can be extended, typically by demonstrating a new use or application for the device. Somewhere here on the forums a member with better patent experience than me was able to follow the string of patents and arrived at the latest active date, which happened last July. That's not to say that BM doesn't have action pending to extend their exclusive rights. Anything goes once things get into the hands of lawyers!

In terms of legit companies not offering an Axis lock, I think it makes sense that they aren't (yet). Given the cost to design, prototype and set up assembly for an entirely new knife with a new lock...I can't imagine companies like Spyderco or KAI spending resources until patents have definitely expired. Even then, there's no consensus that the Axis lock is the most desirable lock in the knife world, so many manufacturers may simply choose to not pursue it. I think the proof will be in the pudding over the next few years if legit companies begin to offer "Axis" lock models (not using that name, of course). BTW, I love this write up by Doug Ritter breaking down the benefits of the Axis lock...http://www.dougritter.com/pop_up_axis_lock.htm

Its only the scum buckets like Ganzo that have no regard for law and potential litigation that are already geared up to offer a stolen design feature Ganzo seems to epitomize what is worst in all cloners and counterfeiters; not only stealing patented components but outright copy of design. Yuck.

I've gone down the rabbit hole of tracing the steps of the Axis lock patent. The issue is complicated and the patent office website sucks. I am in agreement with this post:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-the-AXIS-lock-expire?p=12581057#post12581057

That said, if anyone tells you they know for sure when this thing expires they better have an actual case where a judgment was ruled on for the axis lock patent. It seems to me that is the only way to no for sure.

 

[skyhorse]

and all you stone throwers are typing from what?

I don't have a consistent position on this but am very interested to hear what others think about it. To me there seems to be legitimate arguments on both sides with the exception of clones and blatant fakes

I'm not passing any moral judgment on others, personally I'm not interested in owning any homage , fake , clone type knives.

 

[Hackenslash]

Actually, this seems to indicate that the patent has a re-issue date of 4/27/2010 so the Axis may still be protected.
http://portal.uspto.gov/pair/PublicPair
I give up. Just buy legit knives.

 

[davek14]

Did you do it?

I don't own a Benchmade knife.