Fakery!!

waynorth

Dealer / Materials Provider
Joined
Nov 19, 2005
Messages
30,017
Who knows where some of these knives come from??? Mechanic's specials?? Feverish nightmares??
Some have elements of reality, and some have origins that are hard, or impossible, to trace!!
Have you got one, or more?? Post it/them here and tell us your story!!

Here is one that has a mixed message!! 🤔 The Dog's-head rear Bolster, implies Ka-bar, whose predecessor was Union Cut Co, but the knife is marked Tidioute!! 😲 And the pattern and front bolster are quite the pieces of sculpture!! ;) A cool knife, but an apparent mixed-breed construction!!Tidioute dog bolster 1.jpgTidioute dog bolster 2.jpg
 
If you don't own a copy of this book you're asking for trouble. Plus it's a really good read. Lot's of knowledge between the covers.

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I've found a few over the years. I have a couple that I'm not sure of. But prices of the really hard to find stuff just invite fakes.
 
That certainly is an interesting knife, Charlie, but I think Tidioute did make some knives for Kabar at some point. I think I have one that’ll I’ll have to find; unless, of course, it is a fake, too!
 
That looks right to me....
Union Cutlery used the Tidioute name before WW1. The handles look look like sort of celluloid which would be right for that time period. More than likely that this knife is not a fake.
I would have no idea, myself but it is really a striking and beautiful knife.
 
Here is another knife that is hard to pin down! Crown Cutlery Co, according to some sources, started about 1900. Imported through a company in New York, the knives were made in Germany, Austria and Prussia, but started to be made in the USA as WWI started!!
They endured until about 1930. The Dirty 30s ate a lot of cutlery companies.
The knife, with a form of "christmas tree" celluloid, is almost as big as a christmas tree, at 4 1/2" long!! The knife has an extra-large Napanoch style punch, poorly fitted, (over-bladed) which leads me to believe it is not original! The punch is well made but not marked! A non-original replacement blade, maybe.Crown HJ 1.jpgCrown HJ 2.jpgCrown HJ 3.jpg
 
That looks right to me....
Union Cutlery used the Tidioute name before WW1. The handles look look like sort of celluloid which would be right for that time period. More than likely that this knife is not a fake.
Interesting take on it!! Do you know anything about the dogs head image? Shield or bolster??
Bernie Levine laughed at that knife when I showed it to him, years ago!!
 
That certainly is an interesting knife, Charlie, but I think Tidioute did make some knives for Kabar at some point. I think I have one that’ll I’ll have to find; unless, of course, it is a fake, too!
I'd love to see it!!
 
Interesting take on it!! Do you know anything about the dogs head image? Shield or bolster??
Bernie Levine laughed at that knife when I showed it to him, years ago!!
No, I'm not sure about the dogs head thing.....
Or why somebody would laugh at the knife. Tidioute Cutlery Co. was formed in1897, started producing knives in 1898, and was bought by Union Razor in 1902. It existed as a stand alone entity for a brief period of time, and knives were produced using that name. The acquisition of the assets of the Tidioute Cutlery Co. by Union could explain to some degree the origins of the dogs head. I don't see any reason to call this knife a fake without substantive evidence otherwise.
 
No, I'm not sure about the dogs head thing.....
Or why somebody would laugh at the knife. Tidioute Cutlery Co. was formed in1897, started producing knives in 1898, and was bought by Union Razor in 1902. It existed as a stand alone entity for a brief period of time, and knives were produced using that name. The acquisition of the assets of the Tidioute Cutlery Co. by Union could explain to some degree the origins of the dogs head. I don't see any reason to call this knife a fake without substantive evidence otherwise.
This seriously interesting..👍
Personally and for no scientific reason I find the first knife Charlie post ...hideous.
I would also postulate that given the history of the Tidioute company that the present day offerings are in actual fact ............ALL FAKES!!.


I still like em though.😁
 
No, I'm not sure about the dogs head thing.....
Or why somebody would laugh at the knife. Tidioute Cutlery Co. was formed in1897, started producing knives in 1898, and was bought by Union Razor in 1902. It existed as a stand alone entity for a brief period of time, and knives were produced using that name. The acquisition of the assets of the Tidioute Cutlery Co. by Union could explain to some degree the origins of the dogs head. I don't see any reason to call this knife a fake without substantive evidence otherwise.
I really enjoy reading your posts in this tread. I love how much you know about this matter.

I’m learning a lot from this tread.
 
The question of fakery/counterfeiting brings up interesting points. Whilst it is pointed in a dishonest direction, it takes considerable skill, ingenuity and nerve to carry it off :cool: The history of art forgery has long interested me, back in the early c20th numerous previously 'unknown' masterpieces by renowned artists e.g. Raphael, Leeonardo, Michelangelo surfaced to the ecstasy of collectors and vested interest 'experts' Fortunes were made but a lingering whiff of counterfeit hung around. A dynamic had been created: due to the fortunes to be made various experts became convinced they were fakes or genuine as the case may be. The more they knew the less they wanted to see....;) Gullibility knows no limits. Only recently, 2017, an alleged Leonardo masterpiece , Salvator Mundi, was auctioned for 450 million USD to a private collector, it has promptly vanished amidst legitimacy controversy. Was it Da Vinci's work or overpainted by apprentices?

With rare, antique knives the same pattern can emerge as high values/greed inspire the master forger. And in some senses, what is forgery? A man working in a cutlery company clandestinely makes small numbers of exclusive patterns in his own time for dishonest ends or takes parts home to assemble them for amusement or profit. Plus, quite innocently, somebody might've been tinkering with knife parts, experimenting with styles or improving his skill; years later they are seized upon as unique rarities or else products of forgery; when they might have been neither. There's a thin line in antiquities between restorer and forger.

The first knife Charlie showed is indeed interesting, personally, I find it rather grotesque a kind of knife gothic, but tastes are fortunately very varied. The front bolster looks in very pristine condition which is somewhat at odds with the blade condition and dimensions to my eye. But, I don't profess to have special knowledge of the subject, others know far more than I, there might be catalogues showing examples of this knife but it certainly is a bizarre style for the era or any era. The second knife is very much more to my taste and consequently (and dangerously?) I don't scrutinise it very much.

This thread should run and run, there will be a rich seam of argument and dispute as some knives really are mysteries.

Regards, Will
 
Very interesting idea for a thread Charlie :cool: The most commonly faked knives I see are Joseph Rodgers, but usually they are not even English patterns, and the marks are nothing like the genuine ones. Since most of these knives have some age on them, they'd be interesting to collect in their own right.

I've also been asked for opinions on quite a few knives, which were for sale on eBay, which were more recent fakes, and often quite bizarre ones.
 
No, I'm not sure about the dogs head thing.....
Or why somebody would laugh at the knife. Tidioute Cutlery Co. was formed in1897, started producing knives in 1898, and was bought by Union Razor in 1902. It existed as a stand alone entity for a brief period of time, and knives were produced using that name. The acquisition of the assets of the Tidioute Cutlery Co. by Union could explain to some degree the origins of the dogs head. I don't see any reason to call this knife a fake without substantive evidence otherwise.
You make good arguments. The workmanship is very good, and I like the knife!
Bernie found the details too incongruous to be true, but agreed it was well done!
 
I've seen a few Tidioute and Northfield Fakes on the Bay.
Obvious Chinese knife with Tidioute or Northfield laser etched on the tang (crooked to boot).
I usually send the seller a message and they take it down. I had a couple of pictures posted here on the forum but I'll never find them again.
 
Good thread, Charlie. I had often wondered why there was so little discussion of cutlery fakes on this forum.

A couple of years back, there was an interesting discussion about this fake in the Guardians thread, (starts here).

vt7pCN0.jpg
This must have been done before there was much interest in Sheffield knives. It is interesting that someone would think that there would be more interest in a Winchester stamped knife than a Joseph Rodgers stamped one?
 
Laguiole knives are the most counterfeit French knives, Spain and Pakistan being the first purveyors. But as the pattern (unlike the cheese) is not patent-protected, nothing forbids its fabrication and sale!
Thiers was the first infringer, the lower end being sometimes made in Spain (often with à la Spaniard fake names when sold there). The war between Thiers and Laguiole ended quite recently with a gentlemen's agreement. Do I need to say that some "Laguiole made" knives were in fact assembled from parts made in Thiers...
But Thiers did not stop there. The town and it's cutlers can be felt as responsible of the demise of the French little town's cutlery. They copied and produced many local patterns quicker and cheaper than the originals. This is the reason why (among others) Normandy's cutlery collapsed and many local smith-cutlers closed doors because they could not compete price-wise, even with often a better built quality and steel (Villedieu-les-poêles #Villedieu-the-pans is a testimony of the long-established metal craftsmanship, cast iron or brass - amazingly, Thérias, mother of Parapluie à l'épreuve closed the Thiers factory and relocated the fabrication of his famous Econome in Normandy, homage of vice to virtue).
Only Nogent on a much smaller scale resisted partially because they were producing more top-end knives for luxury firms (Hermès, Dunhill, ...) or chirurgical instruments. (Châtellerault and Langres's demises are due to other industrial reasons).

Btw, I happened to work on Fernand Legros's footage (which was never released). As far as I remember, the shooting stopped after FL's Rolls had its front grille hit by another car's bumper running backward...
 
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