Fallkniven F1 or RAT-5

I had both and I think I would go for the RAT, but just barely.
I never owned a knife with a choil but it made me a believer, I felt it really worked for finer tasks. The coating was a bit rough, though, so I sanded it off and put a nice patina on it.
The F1 was great too, nice convex edge, but it was too thick for me, and the handle was too small.
If I had my RAT back I would pay someone to put a nice convex edge on it, or do it myself and it would be just about perfect.
 
Liam Ryan said:
I had both and I think I would go for the RAT, but just barely.
I never owned a knife with a choil but it made me a believer, I felt it really worked for finer tasks. The coating was a bit rough, though, so I sanded it off and put a nice patina on it.
The F1 was great too, nice convex edge, but it was too thick for me, and the handle was too small.
If I had my RAT back I would pay someone to put a nice convex edge on it, or do it myself and it would be just about perfect.
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Isn't the RAT thicker than the F1?
 
Squeezymo said:
Bam! I went with knifecenter the instant I read that.

-Thanks you guys!!!

Edit: dang I coulda saved $5 on newgrahams. oh well
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You made a great choice - everyone's going to have their opinions more or less, but the S1 justifiably is highly regarded by just about everyone.

I really think you'll be blown away by it's quality and capabilities.

(And, knifecenter being the great dealer that it is, accepts returns in case you decide that you'd rather have something other than the S1...
But IMHO, you've made the best choice in the price range. Enjoy.:))
 
rifon2 said:
You made a great choice - everyone's going to have their opinions more or less, but the S1 justifiably is highly regarded by just about everyone.

I really think you'll be blown away by it's quality and capabilities.

(And, knifecenter being the great dealer that it is, accepts returns in case you decide that you'd rather have something other than the S1...
But IMHO, you've made the best choice in the price range. Enjoy.:))
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Thank you you've definitely been one of the greatest helps in this forum. I am definitely looking forward to the S1, especiailly since I had to order it so soon so I could get it by next week and go camping with it!

This is a HUGE step up from my chipped Gerber
 
I have a RAT-3 (sheep horn & D2)from Ontario and would like to comment that they recently repaired a slight warp in the handle without charge and I had used the knife over a year. Nice company to deal with...and I like the knife very much.
 
Squeezymo said:
Thank you you've definitely been one of the greatest helps in this forum. I am definitely looking forward to the S1, especiailly since I had to order it so soon so I could get it by next week and go camping with it!
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Cool, glad to have been of help. :cool:
 
Squeezymo said:
Thank you you've definitely been one of the greatest helps in this forum. I am definitely looking forward to the S1, especiailly since I had to order it so soon so I could get it by next week and go camping with it!

This is a HUGE step up from my chipped Gerber
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Good choice on the S1. You'll love it.
 
Old Painless said:
okay I don't want to take this thread in a different direction but it is relevant to the RAT-5 question.
I am having trouble understanding how many seem to find the choil on knives such as the RAT-5 or SRKW Howling Rat useless or a nuisance. I choke up on my Howling Rat for smaller whittling tasks, etc. And keep my hand on the handle for stronger cuts and batons. What am I missing? It would be cool if someone who is in the non-choil camp could post pics or something of how it can be awkward to use.
A friend of mine was trying to explain to me that choils are a waste of edge because "that's not where you put your finger for the most effective use anyway." This guy knows his knives, but I still don't get it!
I always thought this was a plus the RAT-5 has over the F1, at least for me...
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It's exceedingly simple, really. Although this is going to be a long, boring and pointless rant. Sorry about that, guys. :D

What you are doing by choking up on the choil is two things: 1) You're altering the balance of your grip - with blade heavy knives this means that you're moving your grip closer to the heavy end of the knife, moving your grip away from the handle and on to the blade itself, which in turn means that the knife will put less stress on your hand, feeling less heavy. 2) You're bringing your grip closer to the cutting edge of the blade by moving it away from the handle and onto the blade - this is "good", because the closer your grip is to the part of the blade that cuts, the higher your precision in cutting and indeed everything with the blade is.

But now consider what those two things mean. If you have to alter the balance of your grip towards the blade tip and off the handle so the knife won't feel too heavy in your hand when doing precise work, that means whoever designed the knife screwed up - or simply intended to make his knife a chopper, instead of a knife for precise cutting work. If you have to move your hand off the handle just so your grip can be close to the cutting edge, whoever designed the knife screwed up again.

Choils are a hindrance to performance on small to medium sized knives that are designed to do at least some precise work. They can be useful on large, blade heavy chopping knives because they allow you to move your grip forwards closer to the balance point of the blade which in turn makes the blade feel less heavy and cumbersome in your hand, but even then they're useful only at the times when you're using an awkwardly large knife to do tasks more fitting for a smaller knife. But why are choils a hindrance on small to medium knives? That's the simple part.

What are the two basic parts of a knife? The blade and the handle. Which of these two is the cutting part? And which is the part you're supposed to be holding with your hand? Yeah. So, why is the handle the part you're supposed to be holding with your hand? Why do knifemakers make handles out of micarta, g-10, all kinds of bone and wood, plastic, rubber, you name it? Why don't they just leave the handle off and make you hold onto the bare steel tang of the blade? Because nobody in their right mind would feel comfortable gripping onto a relatively thin, mostly rectangular slab of metal that is either ice cold or burning hot at worst, depending on environmental conditions. The knifemaker wants the knife to feel comfortable in your hand, so he makes handles shaped and contoured so they'll feel better than bare steel against your hand, so that you can hold the knife and use it for extended periods of time without killing your hand. In a word, it's about ergonomics. Most of us like a good ergonomically designed handle that feels good in the hand, right? We want the knife to feel good in hand, that is an important feature - ergonomics. But what the heck does this have to do with choils? Let me rant on... :D

Ok, so, we want our small to medium knife to have a handle that feels good to hold onto. What else do we want? I mean, besides a good steel that gets sharp and holds an edge. Oh yes, precision! Because it's a small to medium knife, we don't want to chop trees with it or to blaze trails. We want to use it for cutting tasks, mostly small ones, carving things out of wood, dressing game, preparing foods, such things. These are all things that require some precision - the faster you want your job done, and the more complicated the job is, the more you will need precision from the knife. So, we want precision. How do we get precise cuts out of a knife? Well, the very first thing is that we must grip very, very close, preferably right next to the cutting edge of the knife blade, because this way, we'll have the highest possible level of control on the blade itself. This is really obvious, but some people somehow manage to miss it. For a nice demonstration, take your largest knife with a choil, and do some work while choking up on the choil. Next, try to do the same work while gripping your knife from the very butt end of the handle, and see how much control you can have on the blade then. Or just try to write with a pencil while holding from the very bottom end of the pencil, instead of the mid or front end closest to the tip.

Starting to see where this is going? We want both at the same time - ergonomics and precision. That means, that we have to have our hand gripping the handle - because the handle is the part that's been specifically designed, shaped and contoured to feel comfortable to hold - but we also have to have our hand as close to the cutting edge of the knife as possible - because that's what we need to be able to make precise cuts. So, what does a choil do? A choil destroys ergonomics. When you choke up on the choil, you move your hand partly off the handle and partly onto the blade - you're moving your hand away from the part that is ergonomically designed to feel comfortable to hold, right onto the part that's made of cold, hard, generally unpleasant to hold steel of awkward shape. So, because we want good ergonomics, we can't use the choil to choke up on. Now, a choil also destroys precision. If you hold on to the handle, you leave the choil between your hand and the cutting edge of the blade, which now means that your grip is very far away from the cutting edge, and your precision suffers that much. But that's not even the worst part. Try to do a prolonged cut with a knife that has a choil, and watch whatever it is that you're cutting slip right into the choil and catch there like a fishing hook, so you'll have to waste a second to remove it - and do this again nearly every time you do a prolonged cut. What a chore! Where you should be able to move your grip freely right up to the cutting edge of the blade for precision, a choil prevents you from doing this - or if you use the choil to choke up on, it robs you from the superior ergonomics of gripping onto the handle instead of the blade.

Personally, I think choils are one of the worst inventions in the history of knives. Much like the finger guard, the choil seems to be the result of a confusion between swords and knives - the former is a weapon, the latter is a tool. On small to medium work knives, the choil affords absolutely no benefit (except perhaps a slight ease to sharpening to those of us who are most inept in that), but presents a considerable obstacle to performance. You don't see choils on wood working knives or practically any knives intended for precision work, for professional users with skill. The reasons for this are obvious: because professional users require both ergonomics and precision, and a choil does only harm to both - again, in small to medium knives, as large chopping knives are a different affair entirely.

The best way to see what a choil does to ruin the performance of a knife is to learn to use a properly designed knife that doesn't have a choil or even a finger guard (certainly not a double guard). The difference in precision is so enormous it feels like using a razor after a chainsaw. :p
 
Squeezymo said:
It came with a leather sheath on that site, which wouldn't have worked for tip-up
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You can just ask Derrick (site owner) to get what you want.

But, you're probably like me and can't wait an extra couple days to get a knife you ordered!:D Heck, I can hardly wait after I press the RETURN button on the computer to confirm the purchase! I want my knife now!:D

Make sure and post some pics of your new S1!!!
 
Varg Lobos said:
You can just ask Derrick (site owner) to get what you want.

But, you're probably like me and can't wait an extra couple days to get a knife you ordered!:D Heck, I can hardly wait after I press the RETURN button on the computer to confirm the purchase! I want my knife now!:D

Make sure and post some pics of your new S1!!!
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I willl definitely post pics as soon as I get it. Why does 7 days take so long!!!!

Plus I did email the store owner, and it was all leather sheaths
 
Squeez,
you made a good decision. I would have gone with your original choice of an F1, but if that big blade make you feel better about keeping the Mt. lions at bay, well, good!

RATS are good solid blades. I have one.

Fallknivens are in another league altogether, very high quality. I have one of them also. You will be very happy with that blade. It's really hard to top a Fallkniven.

Oh, and they're tough. Forget the hype you see about the 'toughest' knives. You cannot break a Fallkniven in normal use. You can break ANY knife if you are stupid enough.

About Mt. lions, why don't you carry pepper spray? Your knife will be useless in a cat fight. Pepper spray will end it right now. Where I live, I am not at the top of the food chain. The biggest knife in the world won't help me. A gun, [which I do carry], or pepper spray are real defense weapons.
 
Elen,
Wow. That was alot to read. I can see your point. Now I understand that view and I think I am converted. But I still love my HR and will use the choil anyway. But I see your point -- If I want to be closer to the tip, I might as well have a shorter blade. If I want a longer blade, I might as well have it all be a cutting edge rather than 1/4 of it being a choil.
Thanks.
 
Have you considered an RC-4?
Seems right in the middle.
rc-4_1.jpg
 
Old Painless said:
Elen,
Wow. That was alot to read. I can see your point. Now I understand that view and I think I am converted. But I still love my HR and will use the choil anyway. But I see your point -- If I want to be closer to the tip, I might as well have a shorter blade. If I want a longer blade, I might as well have it all be a cutting edge rather than 1/4 of it being a choil.
Thanks.
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Just remember that what I ranted about only applies to small to medium (I would say, depending on how the blade was designed, 0 - 6" of blade length) knives that were intended to be used for some precision work. On very large, long bladed, blade heavy knives designed for toughness over cutting efficiency, the choil can be useful to have around, even if it does take away some cutting edge. Basically, the choil is useful on large knives if it's your "one knife does it all" knife. That is to say, if you intend to only carry one knife with you, and choose to make that one knife a large chopping type of knife, then it can be useful to have a choil on it. The large knives are literally a pain to use for any small work (at least for people like me used to doing it much faster and easier with a smaller knife), but if you've got a choil on it, then you can make it a little less painful and much more precise than it would be otherwise. The ergonomics are going to of course be awful, but then, they would be awful even without the choil, because you'd still be using a heavy, long knife to do something you should be doing with a light, short knife. The precision is greatly improved, though, because now, with your grip on the choil, you're right next to the cutting edge instead of far away from it. So choils are not all bad. Of course, the knives that they're not bad on are closer to swords than knives, so... ;)
 
I polished the rough coating on my Rat5 with 1500 grit. Took all of 5 minutes and had a smooth finish.

As for the choil, it's ok. It makes one hell of a firesteel striking spot though.
 
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