Farewell Zt0200

vba said:
I think the 0200 liner lock is thick enough for any sane task. It is practically as thick as many frame locks.
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That's not the problem. The problem is that thick liner just slides off the back of the tang and the blade folds. The same and even worse happens with frame locks. Bottom line, people see a thick liner or frame lock and think its strong but they are not reliable at all. This is not a quality issue or a materiel strength issue. It's a flawed design pure and simple. Even Walker himself stated if the angles weren't perfect the lock was not reliable and he went on to say he was one of very few people who understood the criticalness of the tolerances. This is NOT a design to incorporate in a knife intended for high stress applications.
 
nwmetalbug said:
Maybe you could link us up to the well documented facts.
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No need to. 10 minutes of YouTube will yield plenty of vids where a simple tap on the palm of the hand, or light over strike, etc. and the blade will unlock. It veries of course knife to knife but the number of them that will unlock very easily is very high. Do a little more research and you can find where Walker stated if the angles are not perfect the lock will not be secure.
 
LOL yeah I get all my known facts from youtube.

I think there are hundreds(thousands) of knife makers that will think Walker or whoever that is full of himself
 
nwmetalbug said:
LOL yeah I get all my known facts from youtube.

I think there are hundreds(thousands) of knife makers that will think Walker or whoever that is full of himself
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That's fine but much of this information comes from this site. And when the inventor of the design says the lock angles must be perfect or the lock will not be reliable that should tell you something.
 
I have a couple 0200's, great knives, somehow the handle actually feels better than the one on the fixed 0100. The lock has been solid on both of mine, and through the years I can't say that I've ever seen too many complaints about the lock on the 0200, or was precisionshootist making a blanket statement about liner locks based on You Tube "authorities"? If there were ever any issues with the 0200 liner lock (which I don't believe there were/are), it has been in production for long enough that ZT would have fixed them along the way. ZT definitely has no problem with making running changes to a knife if it will be an improvement. Precisionshootist, you might look for a Spec Bump if you like the 0200 but are scared of the lock. It is really a slender version of the 0200 with a stud lock.
 
Oh, and I am pretty certain that the 0200 was not discontinued due to any shortcomings or reliability issues. ZT just likes to be able to introduce new products. Discontinuing old models frees up much needed manufacturing capacity. Making old models increases the wait time for all the people out there whining about the wait time after Kai introduces a new model.
 
kneedeep said:
I have a couple 0200's, great knives, somehow the handle actually feels better than the one on the fixed 0100. The lock has been solid on both of mine, and through the years I can't say that I've ever seen too many complaints about the lock on the 0200, or was precisionshootist making a blanket statement about liner locks based on You Tube "authorities"? If there were ever any issues with the 0200 liner lock (which I don't believe there were/are), it has been in production for long enough that ZT would have fixed them along the way. ZT definitely has no problem with making running changes to a knife if it will be an improvement. Precisionshootist, you might look for a Spec Bump if you like the 0200 but are scared of the lock. It is really a slender version of the 0200 with a stud lock.
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I don't think ZT fixed it because the design can't be fixed. You are correct I am making more of a blanket statement about the liner and frame lock designs but there are many many cases of the 0200 in particular where a very light impact on the spine bumps the liner right off the tang. Hate to see this awesome knife go but bottom line it's an 8 oz folder that should be able to be used in medieval ways if needed but it's very likely the lock would fail when pushed really hard. I'm not saying for normal cutting choirs or even heavy cutting that the lock is not serviceable but if used in an extreme force scenario which this knife is supposed to be able to handle, I could never trust it. There is a video right now comparing the ZT 0200, the new XHP Cold Steel Recon 1, and the SOG Vulcan. When doing simple very light spine strike and over strike the 0200 predictably failed. The SOG and the Cold Steel held tight. It's only speculation on my part but I do think the discontinued status has to do with it becoming clear the liner and frame lock designs are significantly outclassed by the TriAD and Axis type locks. Users that want a knife like the 0200 want a knife that turns into a fixed blade once that blade is deployed and it's becoming clear that liner/frame lock knives are not up to that task no matter who makes them or how much they cost.
 
Precisionshootist, yes it is only speculation on your part, and your conclusion is most likely incorrect, since ZT and Kershaw have actually recently released and continue to produce various knives with liner locks.

If users want a fixed blade they should get a fixed blade, especially if they expect any sort of heavy use that will inflict spine strikes (but that is a matter for countless other (pointless) threads.

Honestly, one nice thing about a solidly built liner lock like the 0200 is that if you are about to do something that really has you concerned that it might fold, you can simply wedge something into the space between the liner and the scale. This makes it extremely unlikely that the lock could fail.
 
precisionshootist said:
When doing simple very light spine strike and over strike the 0200 predictably failed. The SOG and the Cold Steel held tight. It's only speculation on my part but I do think the discontinued status has to do with it becoming clear the liner and frame lock designs are significantly outclassed by the TriAD and Axis type locks. Users that want a knife like the 0200 want a knife that turns into a fixed blade once that blade is deployed and it's becoming clear that liner/frame lock knives are not up to that task no matter who makes them or how much they cost.
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You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Walker designed the liner lock, but nobody has perfected ANY lock design yet, they all have some issue or another. TriAd takes up an incredible amount of room in the knife and AXIS has an entire cadre of folks convinced that both Omega springs are going to fail ANY DAY NOW, and that is on YouTube as well.

Thank Spark for the IGNORE feature!

If you are a precision shooter, I truly hope you have a more fundamental and solid understanding of firearms and ballistics than you do lock design and manufacturing, so you don't shoot your eye out.

Good day sir!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
No design is safe from ridicule on the great video landfiill (youboob).....

Hey - where is the all powerful #1 grand exalted visir and fanboi potato head of ZT knives? HE would be able to tell us if ZT quit making ZT0200 models because of the design's lack of abilities when compared to a triad lock (not).

best

mqqn
 
Kohai999 said:
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Walker designed the liner lock, but nobody has perfected ANY lock design yet, they all have some issue or another. TriAd takes up an incredible amount of room in the knife and AXIS has an entire cadre of folks convinced that both Omega springs are going to fail ANY DAY NOW, and that is on YouTube as well.

Thank Spark for the IGNORE feature!

If you are a precision shooter, I truly hope you have a more fundamental and solid understanding of firearms and ballistics than you do lock design and manufacturing, so you don't shoot your eye out.

Good day sir!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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Well being that you offered exactly nothing to support your position, I have no idea what was the point of your post. I have no ax to grind here, I want the best and strongest in a hard use folder. The ZT 0200 has a fantastic handle, feel and quality but IMO and Experience and the Experience of many others who have tested these knives in the field (NutNfancy or any others that take the time to test many knives extensively) we are really seeing proof the liner/frame lock is truly inferior to the TriAD and to an extent the Axis lock as well. Heck for that matter I think it's obvious even a straight lock back as employed on the famous Buck 110 is in fact a better design. How often have you seen posts on this forum being concerned with what percent "lock up" on a lock back knife like a buck 110, or a Spyderco Endura? Think about it? Is that ever a concern? Yet it's a major concern and point that greatly varies from knife to knife on very expensive knives like Striders, Emersons or even CRK. OMG it locks up at nearly 70%!! ---- That nonsense to me is proof of a flawed design. You could open up 500 Cold Steel Voyagers and not tell one bit of difference in the lock up. You could do the same with a full 600 count sprint run of Spyderco Enduras. So offer up something to support your opinion, rather than just say I don't know what I'm talking about.
 
precisionshootist said:
Well being that you offered exactly nothing to support your position, I have no idea what was the point of your post. I have no ax to grind here, I want the best and strongest in a hard use folder. The ZT 0200 has a fantastic handle, feel and quality but IMO and Experience and the Experience of many others who have tested these knives in the field (NutNfancy or any others that take the time to test many knives extensively) we are really seeing proof the liner/frame lock is truly inferior to the TriAD and to an extent the Axis lock as well. Heck for that matter I think it's obvious even a straight lock back as employed on the famous Buck 110 is in fact a better design. How often have you seen posts on this forum being concerned with what percent "lock up" on a lock back knife like a buck 110, or a Spyderco Endura? Think about it? Is that ever a concern? Yet it's a major concern and point that greatly varies from knife to knife on very expensive knives like Striders, Emersons or even CRK. OMG it locks up at nearly 70%!! ---- That nonsense to me is proof of a flawed design. You could open up 500 Cold Steel Voyagers and not tell one bit of difference in the lock up. You could do the same with a full 600 count sprint run of Spyderco Enduras. So offer up something to support your opinion, rather than just say I don't know what I'm talking about.
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It isn't exactly difficult to find instances posted of lock failures of Enduras or even 110's. But clearly you are ignoring that. Also, it doesn't take too much pocket lint or other debris to prevent a lock back from engaging properly.

If you search enough you can find, at the very least, instances of some moron causing any type of lock to fail.

Considering the sheer number of 0200's out there (well over 11k of just the PE) the number of documented failures in normal or even heavy use is insignificant, and likely well below the expected defect rate of any manufactured product.
 
precisionshootist said:
Well being that you offered exactly nothing to support your position, I have no idea what was the point of your post. I have no ax to grind here, I want the best and strongest in a hard use folder. The ZT 0200 has a fantastic handle, feel and quality but IMO and Experience and the Experience of many others who have tested these knives in the field (NutNfancy or any others that take the time to test many knives extensively) we are really seeing proof the liner/frame lock is truly inferior to the TriAD and to an extent the Axis lock as well. Heck for that matter I think it's obvious even a straight lock back as employed on the famous Buck 110 is in fact a better design. How often have you seen posts on this forum being concerned with what percent "lock up" on a lock back knife like a buck 110, or a Spyderco Endura? Think about it? Is that ever a concern? Yet it's a major concern and point that greatly varies from knife to knife on very expensive knives like Striders, Emersons or even CRK. OMG it locks up at nearly 70%!! ---- That nonsense to me is proof of a flawed design. You could open up 500 Cold Steel Voyagers and not tell one bit of difference in the lock up. You could do the same with a full 600 count sprint run of Spyderco Enduras. So offer up something to support your opinion, rather than just say I don't know what I'm talking about.
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Post less, read more. Kohai has forgotten more about knives than you'll most likely ever know.
 
kneedeep said:
It isn't exactly difficult to find instances posted of lock failures of Enduras or even 110's. But clearly you are ignoring that. Also, it doesn't take too much pocket lint or other debris to prevent a lock back from engaging properly.

If you search enough you can find, at the very least, instances of some moron causing any type of lock to fail.

Considering the sheer number of 0200's out there (well over 11k of just the PE) the number of documented failures in normal or even heavy use is insignificant, and likely well below the expected defect rate of any manufactured product.
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True, lock backs fail but they are very predictable. I have some very nice Liner locks that are not predictable at all. Some have developed lock rock with very light use, others seem very solid (Hossom Retribution) but its very possible even light baton type work would damage the lock. Now do I baton with my folders much? No not at all, but for this type of knife I WANT that capability. I don't do spine whacks either but I do believe this is a very valid test for lock strength and liner/frame locks often fail this type of testing miserably. Liner/frame locks also are very poor at handling twisting and prying type stresses, again not something I need very often but I WANT that capability. Only time will tell why ZT is dropping the 0200 but the reality is classic time tested designs tend to stay in production. ZT must think more desirable designs could be offered or they would stick with it. All this discussion aside, I'm very likely to pick up an 0200 anyway as I truly like the overall feel of this knife but when it comes to carrying a knife with the capability of a fixed blade I will stick with Cold Steel for now. The new 4 max from Cold Steel may well be the end all of brute force folders. If I do pick up an 0200 I will keep in mind the posters suggestion to wedge something between the liner if I had to use extreme force with the blade. A very unlikely event but again, I WANT that capability.

This has been interesting, and hopefully we will learn more about why the 0200 is going away. Could be just to make production room for more Emerson ZT offerings or it could be the 2015 Cold Steel lineup is looming.
 
The 0100's, 0200's, and 0300's are ZT's oldest designs, it was just time to move on to newer designs for which the production capacity was needed. That's it, no need for further speculation.
 
I'm glad I got my ZT0200ST before they start to become unicorns. Having both a ZT0301 and the ZT0200ST, I'd have to say that I actually prefer the 0200 over the more expensive 0301. Great knife.
 
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