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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is $300 ea, one per household please.
Favorite guns?
- Thread starter Garth Reckner
- Start date
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- Nov 29, 2011
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- 64
Trijicog,
Nice stock on that FAL? Is that a DSA?
I had a FAL (DSA 16") a couple months, but ended up selling it to fund one of my "Grail" rifles, a KAC SR15E3. Regret selling it on occasion, but I guess I get bored easily.
DSA...
KAC SR15...
Nice stock on that FAL? Is that a DSA?
I had a FAL (DSA 16") a couple months, but ended up selling it to fund one of my "Grail" rifles, a KAC SR15E3. Regret selling it on occasion, but I guess I get bored easily.
DSA...
KAC SR15...
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Trijicog,
Nice stock on that FAL? Is that a DSA?
I had a FAL (DSA 16") a couple months, but ended up selling it to fund one of my "Grail" rifles, a KAC SR15E3. Regret selling it on occasion, but I guess I get bored easily.
DSA...
KAC SR15...
What stock do you have on your M1A? Looks good...
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2005
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- 8,808
You must get one of these: http://www.cylinder-slide.com/index...f=CSP900&sid=t99223m8glnrzj9m33vw95su0h766960
Others off the top of my head:
Fancy 1911 (too bad your boss doesn't have a relationship with someone who makes these...)
Walther PPK
HK P9s
CZ-75 (or a variant)
SIG P210
Smith and Wesson N-Frame .357 magnum (Model 27 or equivalent)
Suppressed .22 LR pistol (integral would be coolest)
An engraved "BBQ gun" of your choice
Colt Python
Korth revolver
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- Dec 31, 2005
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- 2,984
If you're up to spending a lot of money on a custom pistol I came across one that is tempting me ... I have been considering a 10mm ... and after a session of "google-fu" I found out that one of your top custom pistol smiths Mark Morris is a big fan of the calibre. He has taken an STI slide and frame and re-worked them for a tighter fit and put in a custom barrel threaded for a silencer and given it a custom trigger plus a few other jobs such as adding a Leupold Delta "dot" sight ( or his iron sights if you prefer ) and is mainly offering this in .45 ACP but has done one for himself in 10mm and would do another having spoken to him by e-mail ...
I really like the idea of one of these in 10mm because for my uses the silencer option being already done and having a high capacity mag and ability to take a light and laser system with iron sights on top just ticks all the boxes.
Whether I get one or not remains undecided ... partly the cost ( a whopping $6000 ) ... but also depends on seeing if I can source some MP5/10's which were built for the FBI. They don't use them anymore having switched to .40 S&W and use MP5/40's now.
I think a "system" like that would work well for security work in Africa albeit for most of the guys some cheaper 10mm pistol would likely be their preferred choice. The STI Perfect 10 is a lot cheaper but still expensive at $2,400 and if we could put an order in for longer threaded barrels then they would be nearly as good ... or we could go with Tangfolio's which are much cheaper or Glocks. There are still a few makers doing 10mm in budget priced pistols ... and compared to the Perfect 10 I cannot see much to justify the extra $3.5 K.
I really like the idea of one of these in 10mm because for my uses the silencer option being already done and having a high capacity mag and ability to take a light and laser system with iron sights on top just ticks all the boxes.
Whether I get one or not remains undecided ... partly the cost ( a whopping $6000 ) ... but also depends on seeing if I can source some MP5/10's which were built for the FBI. They don't use them anymore having switched to .40 S&W and use MP5/40's now.
I think a "system" like that would work well for security work in Africa albeit for most of the guys some cheaper 10mm pistol would likely be their preferred choice. The STI Perfect 10 is a lot cheaper but still expensive at $2,400 and if we could put an order in for longer threaded barrels then they would be nearly as good ... or we could go with Tangfolio's which are much cheaper or Glocks. There are still a few makers doing 10mm in budget priced pistols ... and compared to the Perfect 10 I cannot see much to justify the extra $3.5 K.
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That's a USGI fiberglass stock that I found at a gunshow years ago. It was pretty beat up, so after I filled in the selector notch (using a fiberglass repair kit), I painted it with textured spray paint.
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Nice 686 Rob...looks like a good mate to that tooth pick you have there... 
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.....niiiiiiiiiiice G1...!!!!!My favorite battle rifle is the FAL :thumbup:
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Found some more nice 10mm customs ... this one is a long slide done by Heinnie through Blackhawks web site ... it also ain't cheap at $3,500
There are a few custom 1911 pistol smiths doing a long slide 10mm version ... they all are similarly priced and don't have particular higher mag capacity to a .45 .... which seems a shame given the smaller diameter calibre. They certainly group well though ...
There are a few custom 1911 pistol smiths doing a long slide 10mm version ... they all are similarly priced and don't have particular higher mag capacity to a .45 .... which seems a shame given the smaller diameter calibre. They certainly group well though ...
Garth Reckner
Moderator
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Peter,
Those are some sweet 10mm. Might have to check those out.
Thanks
Garth
Those are some sweet 10mm. Might have to check those out.
Thanks
Garth
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- Dec 31, 2005
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- 2,984
The FN 5.7 is an interesting concept which basis a lot of sales on it's potential with the right bullets to go through level IIIA soft body armour. 5.7mm is .22 centrefire in rifle ammo and their pistol ammo more or less comes in at a low centrefire .22 PPC velocities. Legally sold ammo is of the type using bullets intended for varmint or target paper shooting. They break up easily upon penetration. However for true kevlar perfomance you would need to re-load the bullets by pulling the original bullets or simply buy the rounds in empty case format and re-load with suitable armour piercing rounds which cannot be legally bought.
Therefore for "sales" purposes and media reporting it has a cache of effectiveness it does'nt really have ... particularly allowing that the Muslim US Army Pschiatrist who went nuts with one on Ft Hood ... he bought one because he was sold the idea that this pistol was kevlar defeating when infact the factory ammo sold to him was not ... and because this calibre only works well if the bullet either becomes "frangible" and breaks up upon penetration or if it tumbles during penetration ... because for wound channel creation it is only .22 in diameter.
What it does have going for it though is that being so small in diameter it is better placed for penetrating carbon fibres blended into kevlar ... which is a substance that primarily works because of the strength of the fibre utilised into a tight weave and it can shoot through these at high velocities.
However to understand whether or not larger calibre pistols are therefore "not as good" at this task you need to consider what else is out there.
Here is a good link to an article about a specialist distribution company Le Mas Ltd who sell specialist ammo created by another company specifically for anti kevlar use.
http://www.defensereview.com/le-mas...ogy-ammo-vs-ads-transparent-armor-afji-video/
Forget about the "Blended Metals" name for the bullet makers. They are not producing hybrid metal bullets to do the job. What they are doing is creating rounds that are a lot lighter bulets at higher speed for standard pistol calibres which then share the same properties of the 5.7mm ammo and applying special coatings to the bullet.
For the 10mm the Le Mas L.E.A./Military ammo is a 77g bullet doing 2500 fps and a 33g bullet doing 3000 fps. These are small bullets for a 10mm but because they are so light you can shoot them safely in the pistol brass because pressure is still controlled. I would however have recoil springs on the stiffer side for use with hot 180 JHP ammo if wanting to interchange to Le Mas. Le Mas follow the same strategy with 9mm and with .40 S&W and .45 ACP.
The main thing when you have such "light" bullets in large diameter calibres is that the sectional density of the round ( basically how long they are or how much "core" there is ) is very low. As a result whilst the bullets can be used to penetrate the kevlar once they hit flesh the lack of sectional density induces the bullet to break up into pieces ... thereby controlling over penetration and hopefully creating a bigger wound channel.
The trick is though with these type of bullets for this type of application is to have the bullet coated properly to retain a slippy shape for penetrating kevlar fibres and to keep the metal used in the bullet from "mushrooming" due to the speed of the bullet and the coefficient of friction of air before it hits the intended target.
Their secret therefore is not so much the blending of metals but rather the application of coatings. Teflon is the most common form of a heat shield coating and moly being applied on top to enable the bullets to ride down the barrel slickly and to counter act the effects of the teflon which would not perform like copper brass jackets and melt and mold as per normal to the barrels rifling.
So the bottom line is that there are many pistols out there which can do a better job at sorting kevlar than the FN 5.7 and had the FT Hood Pscycho been using a 9mm/40/45 with Special Project Ammo there would likely have been far more deaths as the wound channels would have been deeper ... and in point of fact the personnel on base were not wearing kevlar ... as the C.O. said ... they were not armed or wearing armour because this is our "home".
Compare the flat shooting fast 10mm which also has a great kevlar option which does'nt need to rely on "tumbling" with the 5.7 and you can see why hardly anyone who has to be at the sharp end of a gunfight in the military or LEA is choosing them. They might have them. We do. They are'nt choosing them though.
Personally I think the "system" the FBI had with the 10mm and the H&K MP5/10 is the best I have used/encountered for a single calibre "long and short" combination ... it is just a shame that the P.C. considerations of today meant it was taken out of service.
Lol ... I would love to have known what Jeff Cooper would have said about the FN 5.7 mm system ( because it was combined with a "short and long" option for a NATO weapon trial ). Jeff Cooper created the 10mm auto cartridge to give greater capacity and as good performance or better than a .45 ACP. After John Moses Browning he is one of the few people who (I think) knew what they were doing in calibre-weapon design.
Eugine Stoner and the 5.56mm "Revolution" has probably caused more "failure to kill quickly" loses on our side than can ever be counted or known ... no wonder 7.62 battle rifles are being comissioned quickly for S'tan.
It will soon be 30 years to the day I went to the Falklands ... no one came out of that war saying that their FN's were not up to the task. The SAS/SBS who had 5.56 were the first to appreciate how good the Argentine FN FAL's with folding stocks were ... a lot of those came back home with us with the guys who had picked them up.
Lord knows how bad it will get if we went down the 5.7mm route ...
Therefore for "sales" purposes and media reporting it has a cache of effectiveness it does'nt really have ... particularly allowing that the Muslim US Army Pschiatrist who went nuts with one on Ft Hood ... he bought one because he was sold the idea that this pistol was kevlar defeating when infact the factory ammo sold to him was not ... and because this calibre only works well if the bullet either becomes "frangible" and breaks up upon penetration or if it tumbles during penetration ... because for wound channel creation it is only .22 in diameter.
What it does have going for it though is that being so small in diameter it is better placed for penetrating carbon fibres blended into kevlar ... which is a substance that primarily works because of the strength of the fibre utilised into a tight weave and it can shoot through these at high velocities.
However to understand whether or not larger calibre pistols are therefore "not as good" at this task you need to consider what else is out there.
Here is a good link to an article about a specialist distribution company Le Mas Ltd who sell specialist ammo created by another company specifically for anti kevlar use.
http://www.defensereview.com/le-mas...ogy-ammo-vs-ads-transparent-armor-afji-video/
Forget about the "Blended Metals" name for the bullet makers. They are not producing hybrid metal bullets to do the job. What they are doing is creating rounds that are a lot lighter bulets at higher speed for standard pistol calibres which then share the same properties of the 5.7mm ammo and applying special coatings to the bullet.
For the 10mm the Le Mas L.E.A./Military ammo is a 77g bullet doing 2500 fps and a 33g bullet doing 3000 fps. These are small bullets for a 10mm but because they are so light you can shoot them safely in the pistol brass because pressure is still controlled. I would however have recoil springs on the stiffer side for use with hot 180 JHP ammo if wanting to interchange to Le Mas. Le Mas follow the same strategy with 9mm and with .40 S&W and .45 ACP.
The main thing when you have such "light" bullets in large diameter calibres is that the sectional density of the round ( basically how long they are or how much "core" there is ) is very low. As a result whilst the bullets can be used to penetrate the kevlar once they hit flesh the lack of sectional density induces the bullet to break up into pieces ... thereby controlling over penetration and hopefully creating a bigger wound channel.
The trick is though with these type of bullets for this type of application is to have the bullet coated properly to retain a slippy shape for penetrating kevlar fibres and to keep the metal used in the bullet from "mushrooming" due to the speed of the bullet and the coefficient of friction of air before it hits the intended target.
Their secret therefore is not so much the blending of metals but rather the application of coatings. Teflon is the most common form of a heat shield coating and moly being applied on top to enable the bullets to ride down the barrel slickly and to counter act the effects of the teflon which would not perform like copper brass jackets and melt and mold as per normal to the barrels rifling.
So the bottom line is that there are many pistols out there which can do a better job at sorting kevlar than the FN 5.7 and had the FT Hood Pscycho been using a 9mm/40/45 with Special Project Ammo there would likely have been far more deaths as the wound channels would have been deeper ... and in point of fact the personnel on base were not wearing kevlar ... as the C.O. said ... they were not armed or wearing armour because this is our "home".
Compare the flat shooting fast 10mm which also has a great kevlar option which does'nt need to rely on "tumbling" with the 5.7 and you can see why hardly anyone who has to be at the sharp end of a gunfight in the military or LEA is choosing them. They might have them. We do. They are'nt choosing them though.
Personally I think the "system" the FBI had with the 10mm and the H&K MP5/10 is the best I have used/encountered for a single calibre "long and short" combination ... it is just a shame that the P.C. considerations of today meant it was taken out of service.
Lol ... I would love to have known what Jeff Cooper would have said about the FN 5.7 mm system ( because it was combined with a "short and long" option for a NATO weapon trial ). Jeff Cooper created the 10mm auto cartridge to give greater capacity and as good performance or better than a .45 ACP. After John Moses Browning he is one of the few people who (I think) knew what they were doing in calibre-weapon design.
Eugine Stoner and the 5.56mm "Revolution" has probably caused more "failure to kill quickly" loses on our side than can ever be counted or known ... no wonder 7.62 battle rifles are being comissioned quickly for S'tan.
It will soon be 30 years to the day I went to the Falklands ... no one came out of that war saying that their FN's were not up to the task. The SAS/SBS who had 5.56 were the first to appreciate how good the Argentine FN FAL's with folding stocks were ... a lot of those came back home with us with the guys who had picked them up.
Lord knows how bad it will get if we went down the 5.7mm route ...
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- Apr 23, 2007
- Messages
- 4,984
EDIT: Had a feeling this was too good to be true. Just read the links you posted.
Thanks for sharing this. This is very interesting stuff in terms of ballistics (something that really piques my interest). What I gathered from the company that makes these fragmenting bullets is that they are like Corbon Pow'rball but even better and in standard pressure. I don't jump on the +P or +P+ bandwagon, so this is of real interest to me. I'm gonna try to check out some of these in 9mm and .45acp. The only downside is that RBCD doesn't have the blended metal tech soft point bullets in 9mm or .45 acp.
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- Dec 31, 2005
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- 2,984
Harkamus ... I did a little more research on the RBCD bullets and unfortunately it is not good ....
These bullets were tested by the US Joint Armed Services Group and were found to have a simple nylon core with a small amount of lead sitting on top wrapped up in a normal copper jacket. The nylon reduces the weight but enables the bullets to have normal dimensions. The reduced weight enables greater velocity to be achieved. There basic effectiveness is therefore wholly on their velocity. So small is the lead core that impact starts the break up.
In essence they are not what they claim to be. They have had a fairly thorough review by Doctor Gary Roberts who is the FBI and Joint Services main Consultant on bullet wound analysis.
Here is the link I found.
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Exotic_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
These bullets were tested by the US Joint Armed Services Group and were found to have a simple nylon core with a small amount of lead sitting on top wrapped up in a normal copper jacket. The nylon reduces the weight but enables the bullets to have normal dimensions. The reduced weight enables greater velocity to be achieved. There basic effectiveness is therefore wholly on their velocity. So small is the lead core that impact starts the break up.
In essence they are not what they claim to be. They have had a fairly thorough review by Doctor Gary Roberts who is the FBI and Joint Services main Consultant on bullet wound analysis.
Here is the link I found.
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Exotic_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
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- Apr 23, 2007
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EDITED since this isn't relevant anymore.
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