Favorite knife steel

You do realize that honyaki means "monosteel" , nothing more, and that no good katana was ever made from a single type/hardness of steel, right? The Masamume blades were forged from 7 pieces of 3 different hardnesses. , IIRC. As for hardness , you can get ugly old American and Eurpean carbon steels like 52100 and W2 to 67Rc as quenched hardness too. ;) The Hitachi carbon steels and such are known for being super clean, but they are no miracle steels.
HwangJino said:
Yes it can be brittle.

however these knives can also be very strong if correct angle is made with edge.

True katanas are all honyaki with very high hrc yet have been recorded to slice through 5 human pelvis in 1 swing. Average is one human pelvis.

id say brittle wasnt an issue once appleseed convex is perfected.
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Have you used a $5000 yanagi in honyaki? It is a dream to use compared to my high carbon yanagi which is still considered very smooth.

Ive been under the imoression that lower grade blades (yanagi or katana) used clad method (easier) while top few makers would use single block of steel. Muxh harder to complete.

it was said only a few could be made because few at the time could afford that much high priced steel to be hammered for up to year jntil homogenous as possible. Im talking a few (musuem pieces).

please correct me if im wrong as I'm always open to learning.
 
Chris, How does M4@64 rc hardness do compared to s90v? It's got to be close in edge retention with 4 rc points higher. I guess I will know soon enough when your custom gets here.
 
gine said:
Chris, How does M4@64 rc hardness do compared to s90v? It's got to be close in edge retention with 4 rc points higher. I guess I will know soon enough when your custom gets here.
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Honestly, I think that even with the extra points of hardness I would still give the edge holding advantage to S90V. I will attribute this to the more than double Vanadium content.
The true test would be two knives with identical geometry. A lot of my thoughts are based primarily off meat cutting. I think that for a slicer style grind that is where I see big differences in steel performance. That said, S90V has still exceeded my expectations whenever I use it for whatever media I am cutting. All the knives I use personally are sharpened identically with the same stone progression and stropped with the same compound. That really leaves the only variables to be geometry, heat treat, and steel composition.
 
Thanks for the insight , I really like S90v as well. I have a several in that steel as you know. I have a couple folders in M4 but am looking forward to trying one at high hardness.
 
jdm61 said:
You do realize that honyaki means "monosteel" , nothing more, and that no good katana was ever made from a single type/hardness of steel, right? The Masamume blades were forged from 7 pieces of 3 different hardnesses. , IIRC. As for hardness , you can get ugly old American and Eurpean carbon steels like 52100 and W2 to 67Rc as quenched hardness too. ;) The Hitachi carbon steels and such are known for being super clean, but they are no miracle steels.
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Yeah it's all about the alloy content, if that's not there then well...... it's just not there.

The interesting thing about the Japanese swords are they where made out of what is usually comparable to what is called White Steel today.

No real magic, just excellent sword smith's, geometry and swords men.

And yeah all of them were deferentially heat treated and made from folded steel.
 
Actually, almost ALL Western smiths use monosteel for their CHEAPER knives and laminated/forge welded steel for more expensive pieces. The thing that may make a monosteel blade harder to do in the Japanese manner is the METHODS that they use. Some owuld argue that they need the super clean high quality steel like the Hitachi "paper" steels to compensate the archaic methods they use. Seeing a Japanese smith hammering on a cold clad blade makes most of us western metal pounders cringe. As for swords, Masemune is considered by many to the the greatest maker of all time an NONE of his swords were what you would call honyaki. CHEAP Japanese swords are made from monosteel. however, some expensive ones made in places like the US are made with modern monosteels like W2, 1086, 1075 or L6.
HwangJino said:
Have you used a $5000 yanagi in honyaki? It is a dream to use compared to my high carbon yanagi which is still considered very smooth.

Ive been under the imoression that lower grade blades (yanagi or katana) used clad method (easier) while top few makers would use single block of steel. Muxh harder to complete.

it was said only a few could be made because few at the time could afford that much high priced steel to be hammered for up to year jntil homogenous as possible. Im talking a few (musuem pieces).

please correct me if im wrong as I'm always open to learning.
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Actually, the "differential" hardness of a katana came as much if not more from the carbon content of the steel used for varying parts of the billet than from the quench. Parts of the sword will be softer even if you try to fully harden the blade. Masamune used three different grades of steel, high medium and low carbon and his blades were forged from 7 different pieces of steel. What does come from the quench and the claying of the blade are the surface features and the curvature (sori)
Ankerson said:
Yeah it's all about the alloy content, if that's not there then well...... it's just not there.

The interesting thing about the Japanese swords are they where made out of what is usually comparable to what is called White Steel today.

No real magic, just excellent sword smith's, geometry and swords men.

And yeah all of them were deferentially heat treated and made from folded steel.
Click to expand...
 
HwangJino said:
Have you used a $5000 yanagi in honyaki? It is a dream to use compared to my high carbon yanagi which is still considered very smooth.

Ive been under the imoression that lower grade blades (yanagi or katana) used clad method (easier) while top few makers would use single block of steel. Muxh harder to complete.

it was said only a few could be made because few at the time could afford that much high priced steel to be hammered for up to year jntil homogenous as possible. Im talking a few (musuem pieces).

please correct me if im wrong as I'm always open to learning.
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There are a large variety of excellent swords available from different smiths in Japan, China and the US, prices range from a few thousand to over $15,000 and above depending on the smith.

Then the antique swords are usually much, much higher as they are more valuable, and usually have to be restored and that costs a lot of money to have that done properly.
 
jdm61 said:
Actually, the "differential" hardness of a katana came as much if not more from the carbon content of the steel used for varying parts of the billet than from the quench. Parts of the sword will be softer even if you try to fully harden the blade. Masamune used three different grades of steel, high medium and low carbon and his blades were forged from 7 different pieces of steel. What does come from the quench and the claying of the blade are the surface features and the curvature (sori)
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Yeah, I know, but both then and later on it was done on purpose because it was found the blades where more durable to have the spine softer than the edge.

The folding was done for many reasons, mostly due the the impurities in the steels that where used.

Not many people could afford swords like Masamune......
 
I like 1075. Its cheap, easy to sharpen and tough. And edgeholding is decent (if the heat treat is right)
 
A common misconception is that the swords were done in the "san mai" fashion like the kitchen knives in that a hard, high carbon core was laminated to a low carbon or iron "jacket. quite the opposite. even in a "simple" 2 piece sword, a hard U shaped "jacket is wrapped around a soft core than is exposed at the spine. IIRC, what Masamune did was to have a high carbon edge, low carbon central core and a medium carbon spine cap stacked 3 high and a combo laminate of high and medium carbon steel on flats of the blade. Ask you can imagine, the great skill would have been in keeping all of those parts even and aligned during the forging process.
Ankerson said:
Yeah, I know, but both then and later on it was done on purpose because it was found the blades where more durable to have the spine softer than the edge.

The folding was done for many reasons, mostly due the the impurities in the steels that where used.

Not many people could afford swords like Masamune......
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I have seen a video somewhere once about a Japanese sword making using the process that Joe is describing above. If I remember right the smith judged the "hardness" of the material by the way it broke when struck with a hammer. I think this was with steel right out of the Tamahagane process. He broke it, graded it, restacked it, and then forged the sword.
I have to agree though that the steel was not magical. What the smith, polishers, and swordsman got from it may have made it seem like that, but I am betting that a much better and higher performing sword could be made from CPM 3V with todays techniques.
 
Big Chris said:
I have seen a video somewhere once about a Japanese sword making using the process that Joe is describing above. If I remember right the smith judged the "hardness" of the material by the way it broke when struck with a hammer. I think this was with steel right out of the Tamahagane process. He broke it, graded it, restacked it, and then forged the sword.
I have to agree though that the steel was not magical. What the smith, polishers, and swordsman got from it may have made it seem like that, but I am betting that a much better and higher performing sword could be made from CPM 3V with todays techniques.
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From the information I have 1080 is used a lot and I have seen some made out of L6 for the American Smiths.

White Steel is still used for the most part by the Japanese Smiths.

Not sure about 3V and how that would really work for Swords made in the traditional way.
 
I would not expect 3V to be forged out. I am talking a purely stock removal blade with modern heat treat.
 
More on topic, my favorite steel.

I would have to say the following as I tend to use them the most.

CPM S30V - EDC, Military or ZAAN.

CPM S90V - Kitchen use, Spyderco South Fork

CPM S110V - Kitchen use, Custom.

Others that I use a lot....

CPM 154 - Kitchen use, Custom Fillet knife

K294 - Kitchen use, Custom

M390 - EDC, general use, Military and Custom Fixed blade.


My reasons:

S30V - find it holds an edge for a very long time in my typical use cutting cardboard and other assorted things at work, touches up very fast to a screaming sharp edge, it just plain works for me with no issues.

S90V - holds an edge almost forever and stays screaming sharp, just light touch ups every now and then.

S110V - Well it's S110V.... holds an edge for freaking ever at the high hardness that my knife is (65 RC) and it holds that screaming sharp edge.

K294 - Extreme edge holding and aggressive.

CPM 154 - excellent steel for the use I have for it, holds an aggressive sharp edge and just keeps cutting, easy to sharpen and fast to touch up.

M390 - Pretty much the same as S30V for me, just holds an edge longer.
 
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I agree. You can only get so much out of a steel before composition factors in. For example, the perfect heat treat on a 1095 blade will never compare to a steel like 3v heat treated properly. As steel technology increases it will leave traditional techniques behind, like horse and carrage vs today's cars. Imagine a S7 m4 laminate, just to name one.
 
Back on topic:

Kitchen: AEB-L , white And blue steels, 1084, L6, cpm 154 cpm s35vn

Folder: M4, s90v,s30v,m390.

Hunting: s110v, k294,s90v,M4

Chopper: 3v,1084,L6,S7,M4
 
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