Favourite FRN Spyderco?

Personally, i agree w/ everything u've said so far in the FRN (FRP) handle debate. However, your arguing style and your "personal crusade" against FRN will quickly have u labeled a troll... :barf: so for your sake, tone down the evangelism , we all already know your opinion...

But Please! don't take this personally, i am on your side too... =P ;)

i own *1* frn knife... and it's a "looks only" piece...
 
Grover,

Let's be scientific here. You've stated in other posts that you've found certain varieties of FRN to be chemically unpredictable, and that, empirically, you've seen a disturbingly high rate of broken FRN "cable hangers" in aerospace applications. Is that a fair summary of your objection?
Click to expand...

No, that's just a single example that demonstrated things very clearly - a lightly loaded condition that still resulted in degredation and failure unpredictably. Other examples I've been personally involved in include gears (notice how the use of FRN gears is 'way down from what it once was] timing belts, loaded beams, shells...in other words, a wide variety of general applications. By the way, these were generically associated with FRN, the common component being nylon. Tests on a broad range of FRN materials show the same problem.

The problem with your statements in this thread is that there doesn't seem to be a corresponding high failure rate in knife applications. Do you think it's possible that there are differences between the materials you worked with in the lab and the materials used in knife handles? Or maybe that the lab results don't necessarily reflect real-world applications? Or maybe that the parts used in SDI systems might be experiencing variables that are totally out of line with the conditions experienced in real-world applications?
Click to expand...

Sorry, as I indicated above, I [and many other workers] have worked through a wide range of materials systems. The problems are unique to FRN, a broad family that the knife handle materials are definitely a part of. And the conditions of aging are pretty much the same as in a wide variety of real-world scenarios - including carrying a knife around.

Next, the lab tests were in response to real-world failures. The problem was found first in real-world applications, then confirmed by lab testing.

The fact that we see some, but not an overwhelming number of failure in knive-handle applications may be simply due to the fact that very few FRN-handled knives actually see hard, frequent use. You can accept this in your EDC, but it's the knife you'll be carrying when you really need a knife! You'll likely have that knife in an emergency when your life or that of others may depend on performance in a non-ideal environment. And here's where my other overwhelming objection to FRN comes into play. FRN is a relatively low modulus material that deforms far more readily and to a greater extent than do almost all other commonly-used handle materials. This places the knife in a situation where it experiences non-ideal and mixed-mode coupling in loading and makes it far more difficult to test it in a meaningful manner. For example, you can end up in coupling shear and bearing loads with tensile and flexural loading and getting failure at levels far earlier than expected. A stiffer material such as G10, aluminum, CF or certainly SS will not suffer this problem.

It's been verified to your satisfaction that FRN breaks down unpredictably in the lab and in aerospace hardware, but the evidence seems to contradict an extension of those misgivings into the area of FRN knife handles.
Click to expand...

No, here you are jumping to a poorly supported conclusion. I believe it is far more likely that the vast majority of FRN-handled knives are rarely used heavily. However, the potential problems are still there. This opinion is based on the fact that the extensive testing involves, as one test condition, just sitting around, as most knives do.

I hope companies that choose design approaches utiizing non-supported FRN will be able to survive litigation for potentially severe damages and losses incurred when their products fail prematurely.

And as I've said, I've grown very attached to my fingers and don't want to risk that attachment with FRN-handled knives.
 
Originally posted by knife_boi
Personally, i agree w/ everything u've said so far in the FRN (FRP) handle debate. However, your arguing style and your "personal crusade" against FRN will quickly have u labeled a troll... :barf: so for your sake, tone down the evangelism , we all already know your opinion...

But Please! don't take this personally, i am on your side too... =P ;)

i own *1* frn knife... and it's a "looks only" piece...
Click to expand...


Blade SC,

You know I don't agree with your views on FRN but you are not trolling by any means. I respect you have a different opinion and that you discuss things rationally, and attempt to back up your claims (although the cardboard knife analogy is a bit far fetched).

Besides, you are a science guy and it's your duty to question everything! ;) So I hope you keep this lively debate going.

I'm not saying your allegations of FRN are false. I'm just saying you haven't disproved nor debunked FRN as a safety liability in knives. Therefore, this is leading to a circular argument. I guess more imperical evidence and studies (e.g. experiments to show cause and effect, correlations, even focus groups) must be done in order to determine if FRN is not a suitable material. As someone with a background in science, I'm sure you would agree that extrapolation from secondary data sources is hardly statistically accurate.

From a legal perspective, I don't think knife companies are sweating over FRN and I'll tell you why I think that:

1. As another person mentioned, in all the years knife companies have been using Zytel, there hasn't been any individual or class action law suits that I know of that are attributed to Zytel failure.

2. If you use BladeForums as an unscientific sample, there aren't any known reports of Zytel failure under normal use; and we're pretty demanding of our knives here. Sure they are accidents due to owner abuse but on the whole, nada.

3. These knife companies protect their hineys with legal disclaimers. Have you seen Spyderco's on their new green boxes? Dang, you need a lawyer and several days to go over each and every point! Good thing I'm not mentally fit for those disclaimers to apply to me! ;)

4. There are far more hazardous bladed objects out there compared to Zytel knives. Consider those cheap utility knives and box cutters housed in flimsy styrene plastic with retractable blades that fall apart in your hand. Yet, they have been on the market for decades without a hitch from consumer protection agencies.

The worst accidents I've had with a knife were: a slip joint knife, a CRKT KISS, and a multi-tool. None of these are Zytel and in all instances, they were due to lockup failures that were unrelated to materials used. For example, slip joints have no locks.

SUMMARY OF MY LONG WINDED POST (as usual): I'm not saying your theories of FRN being a liability are wrong. But, I'd like to see more evidence. However, I do enjoy your perspective.

Whether we like FRN or don't like it I guess the bottom line is that we're lucky to have such a range of knives out there to choose from.
 
We don't really disagree in methodology nor philosophy. I'm putting up my experience and opinions on which I've based my decision not to buy or use FRN-handled knives. Everyone here is free to agree or disagree - I believe the evidence is sufficient for me to avoid them when there are so many better choices out there that avoid the potential problems I believe exist.

Note again, these are my opinions; I've never claimed to have conclusively proved these opinions. I believe that I have, however showed a number of correlations exist that cast significant doubt upon the efficacy of FRN, particularly under aging and/or when unusual loads are applied. There's a world of mechanical property data out there showing that that FRN is relatively weak and not very stiff when compared to true structural materials. That's why it is almost never used in primary load-bearing designs of any sort; designers and material scientists almost without exception specify materials such as glass epoxy (G10 is one of these), CF, stainless steel, titanium, aluminum and other materials for heavy-duty primary structure.

So my arguments that FRN is inferior and potentially dangerous are not "trying to prove/disprove the existence of God." There's plenty of objective evidence out there to back up my contention. FRN has been shown to fly like a duck, walk like a duck and quack like a duck. I say it is a duck.

By the way, the "cardboard knife" is not at all unscientific, it is simply aimed at another issue. The point is that an arbitrary set of criteria manufactured after the fact has little merit in reinforcing an argument.
 
Those are totally fair comments you made, Blade SC. You're certainly entitled to your opinions about FRN based on your own experiences and beliefs.

For those who may wonder about Blade SC's "God's existence" reference, he posted his reply just as I was re-editing my original post. In it, I gave the example of a classic circular argument: Proving/disproving the existence of God. However, I removed it so as not to offend people of faith.

BTW, Blade SC, I wasn't implying that you were creating a circular argument. I meant between the two of us it becomes a circular argument.

FTC

P.S. I ramble way too much! :(
P.P.S. I edit far too often. :(
P.P.P.S. I use far too many emoticons. :(
 
BSC:

Fair enough. I subtly misunderstood your point and dramatically misunderstood the depth of your data.

I'm still unconvinced that your <i>dramatic</i> misgivings are completely justified... :D
 
BSC

I have seen studies which identified significant nylon deterioration when exposed to UV light. In the instances you mentioned, was exposure to UV light a possible contributing factor?
 
4ster,

I didn't discuss the UV problem because a little appropriate filler including a UV absorber like powdered carbon can pretty well cure it when added to the FRN.

For the rest of the folks, I assume some of the comments I expressed in this discussion stemmed from my own opinions expressed in another thread where I was addressed directly. I did, admittedly, throw in a one-liner above before it started.

However, when such a discussion comes up, I feel it is important to get a diversity of opinions, qualified opinions if possible. A lot of newbies don't realize that they are running a risk using FRN. I guess a thread of this sort in the Spyderco Forum several months ago. (I remember the thread, but not the posters) The discussion generated several (3 or more) replies from experienced knife folk who HAD experienced catastrophic failure of FRN-handled knives; some had received (fortunately) minor injuries.

Since I strongly hold my beliefs as supported by existing evidence, I believe it would be irresponsible NOT to comment when the merits of a Matriarch or a heavy-duty working knife are extolled or where an emergency situation may arise under extreme conditions. It's one think to have a knife fail when you need it; it's quite another where such failure can significantly raise the possibility of serious injury or loss of life.

And isn't one of the main purposes of this column, besides providing entertainment, to express a mix of opinions?
 
Blade Santa Cruz spouts a lot of jack about the use of FRN in a lot of applications, none of them involve knives. Just because it's wrapped up in the words of science does not mean its a pertinent fact. Yeah, high temp gears, airplane wings, etc. they might not be good applications for FRN, but that doesn't mean it won't work for knives.

The Matriarch has the same handle as the Endura. It's a proven design, that has stood up to lots of hard use.

Spyderco has been around for a long time, if there was a safety problem with FRN, they'd have stopped using it for liability reasons. They certainly wouldn't have used it with the Matriarch.

My hardest use knife is a Cold Steel FRN Voyager with a 4" blade. This is the old model, based upon the Spyderco handles. I've dug holes in the dirt with it, hammered the tip into cotter pins to splay open the pin, split stakes using a brick for a baton, no problems whatsever.

You're entitled to your opinion and so am I. Thanks for the ridicule, it helps to keep me humble. Why don't you indicate what's wrong with the Matriarch besides the FRN handle. Or are you a little upset because you paid $180 for your Civvi, and the Matriarch runs about $80 and fills the same niche?

Come on Spyderco experts, put this paper tiger in his place with your research and failure analysis.
 
Spyderco has been around for a long time, if there was a safety problem with FRN, they'd have stopped using it for liability reasons. They certainly wouldn't have used it with the Matriarch.

My hardest use knife is a Cold Steel FRN Voyager with a 4" blade. This is the old model, based upon the Spyderco handles. I've dug holes in the dirt with it, hammered the tip into cotter pins to splay open the pin, split stakes using a brick for a baton, no problems whatsever.

You're entitled to your opinion and so am I. Thanks for the ridicule, it helps to keep me humble. Why don't you indicate what's wrong with the Matriarch besides the FRN handle. Or are you a little upset because you paid $180 for your Civvi, and the Matriarch runs about $80 and fills the same niche?

Come on Spyderco experts, put this paper tiger in his place with your research and failure analysis.
 
"What's wrong with a Matriarch besides the handle?" Why not "But besides that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"

Hey, Brownshoe, you're free to choose whatever you like. It's much the same as I disagree with manditory helmet laws for motorcycle and bicycle riders - who am I to argue with them if they decide they have nothing that's worth protecting?

The same with the Matriarch. I've grown attached to my fingers as I've noted many times. And, if my life could depend on the knife, I'd far rather be carrying a Civilian than a Matriarch.

But if you've decided that your fingers, let alone your life, aren't worth a hundred bucks, who am I to disagree?
 
brownshoe

Spyderco (Sal) has responded in another thread which I started titled "Sal - a ? about FRN models"

Both Blade Santa Cruz and Sal have provided some interesting and informative comments. Opinions are just opinions, but in these threads I have read a lot of very pertinent information upon which to form my own opinion and make my own informed decisions.

Although, as many have said, we don't hear alot about failures of FRN handles on Spyderco knives, I bet many people have experienced "tear-out" of the FRN around the reversible clips on models such as the Native, Endura and Delica. I personally have had this happen when the barrel-bolted clip on the FRN Native gets caught on something and is twisted. The edge of the clip cuts out part of the FRN ridge surrounding the base. I have never had this happen on a SS or G-10 handle.

I'm not afraid to use my FRN Spyderco models for general everyday carry. However, I do feel more confident that my G-10 Native and Military or my Titanium Lum Tanto Folder could stand up to anything I could subject them to. I'm really looking forward to a new Lil Temperance to see what a MBC rated model feels like.

p.s. Blade Santa Cruz - thanks for the info re UV effects. It is interesting, out of my last 13 Spydercos, only 2 were FRN (one was the Forum Vesuvius, and one was included in a trade for 3 knives - the other 2 were Micarta and g-10)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top