Feedback on Pros and Cons of Sharpening Systems

[000Robert]

Funny that the "more expensive" the knife, the easier to ruin. Those hand grind sharpening kit doesn't generate heat, you use grind it slowly.

My CHEAP knives can cut paper strips like air, what else do you want?

Well ruin is the wrong word what he means is damaging the heat treat at the edge by using dry belts. You have to remember how little of steel we are talking about. It is easy to damage the heat treat on such a small area and not even know it. And you won't even feel it or see it most of the time.
Sure, it will cut paper but when you put it to a real test the edge will roll or chip. If you use a belt grinder it needs to be a wet setup that sprays a cool water mist onto the blade while grinding. At least that's what the experts say. I bought a Wicked Edge so I wouldn't have to worry about it.

I believe that most people that complain about good steels performing poorly, burned the edges of their blade and don't even know it. Of course, you can fix it by sharpening the edge down until you get to good steel that hasn't had the heat treat damaged.

 

[alan0354]

Well ruin is the wrong word what he means is damaging the heat treat at the edge by using dry belts. You have to remember how little of steel we are talking about. It is easy to damage the heat treat on such a small area and not even know it. And you won't even feel it or see it most of the time.
Sure, it will cut paper but when you put it to a real test the edge will roll or chip. If you use a belt grinder it needs to be a wet setup that sprays a cool water mist onto the blade while grinding. At least that's what the experts say. I bought a Wicked Edge so I wouldn't have to worry about it.

I believe that most people that complain about good steels performing poorly, burned the edges of their blade and don't even know it. Of course, you can fix it by sharpening the edge down until you get to good steel that hasn't had the heat treat damaged.

The one I talked about is not motor driven, it's by hand, it won't heat up.

I know how important is heat treat, BUT how do you know whether the blade is heat treated right to pay big money? There's no way to know until you test and then it might be too late.

For cheaper knives, they likely do mass production and use automated heat treat. Would that be a lot more consistent and produce better quality?

I just never understand this with small knives. For big swords, yes, it's much harder to heat treat, but for even 5" blade, it's very small, they should be able to heat treat nicely by automation.

 

[toker]

I know how important is heat treat, BUT how do you know whether the blade is heat treated right to pay big money? There's no way to know until you test and then it might be too late.

Any reputable manufacturer will have a good heat treat protocol or work with a company that does. From various posts that I've seen, if there is a batch that seems off, then the manufacturer will correct the issue.

I've never run into a heat treat issue with any of my knives, cheap or expensive. The steel seems to perform as it should.

 

[000Robert]

The one I talked about is not motor driven, it's by hand, it won't heat up.

Ok. I thought that you were talking about the dry belt grinder.

I know how important is heat treat, BUT how do you know whether the blade is heat treated right to pay big money? There's no way to know until you test and then it might be too late.

I listen to more experienced members on the forum. I also have some Tsubosan hardness files that can tell me if the heat treat is at least in the ballpark of what the manufacturer says that it is.

For cheaper knives, they likely do mass production and use automated heat treat. Would that be a lot more consistent and produce better quality?

I guess it depends on the company making the knives. The first thing I do with less expensive knives is reprofile the blades with my Wicked Edge to make sure that the bevels are perfect. Then I check the hardness of the steel at the edge bevels.

I just never understand this with small knives. For big swords, yes, it's much harder to heat treat, but for even 5" blade, it's very small, they should be able to heat treat nicely by automation.

I'm sure that they can. Those big guys probably have ovens that are worth more than most people's homes.

 

[alan0354]

Ok. I thought that you were talking about the dry belt grinder.


I listen to more experienced members on the forum. I also have some Tsubosan hardness files that can tell me if the heat treat is at least in the ballpark of what the manufacturer says that it is.


I guess it depends on the company making the knives. The first thing I do with less expensive knives is reprofile the blades with my Wicked Edge to make sure that the bevels are perfect. Then I check the hardness of the steel at the edge bevels.


I'm sure that they can. Those big guys probably have ovens that are worth more than most people's homes.

I am interested in the Tsubosan files, Any cheaper ones you can suggest? Also, how to use it?

I do dumb test, I take two knives, hit each other on the spine and look at the indent. I have one that supposedly D2, but it's soft, left the deepest mark when doing that. So I use that as reference and hit the spine of other knives to see how deep is the dent on the other spine to judge.

There are some surprises, the S&W $9.95 knife that spec for cheap 7Cr17MoV steel did just as good as the $70 Steel Will knives. Actually the rest of the knives did very similar, just one is particular bad.

 

[000Robert]

I am interested in the Tsubosan files, Any cheaper ones you can suggest?

I do dumb test, I take two knives, hit each other on the spine and look at the indent. I have one that supposedly D2, but it's soft, left the deepest mark when doing that. So I use that as reference and hit the spine of other knives to see how deep is the dent on the other spine to judge.

There are some surprises, the S&W $9.95 knife that spec for cheap 7Cr17MoV steel did just as good as the $70 Steel Will knives. Actually the rest of the knives did very similar, just one is particular bad.

I'm not sure you would just have to shop around. I'm pretty sure that I bought mine from Amazon.

 

[kane22]

Thanks for all the responses guys!! I really appreciate the input! Guess I really can't "leggo of that eggo" cause I'm waffling now and leaning towards the WE120.


Excellent idea!!
K kane22 What do you find is the max blade length you can sharpen effectively in your KME? 8", 10"?


I couldn't agree more.
000Robert Same question for you. Website says 15" blades can be sharpened. What do you find is your max effective blade length in the WE130?


True. However, WE60 isn't compatible with many of the other WE accessories. I feel like for $50 more, the WE100 might be a better "base model". But the jaws just look kind of short in the reviews and pics I've seen. Since it's a long term "investment", I'd probably settle on the WE120 with a bit taller jaws.


Very helpful! Thank you!


Agreed. That is a big reason I haven't pulled the trigger yet. It just bothers me and I've seen that mentioned in other reviews too. KME needs to develop a better mounting system.
Adam Savage from MythBusters upgraded the handle on his KME with a piece of custom milled teflon to achieve a more solid connection. Here's a link to the video. He has an AWESOME machine shop!!

I think a 6 inch blade would be about all I would want to do on a KME. As to the play between the base and the clamp, yes there is some. But it's always repeatable every time. If that makes sense. With my base level I know my reading on the stone holder is about one degree off. I keep everything oriented the same direction every time I set it up to sharpen.
I saw you went with the WE, nothing wrong with that either. It should be a nice setup!

 

[ThomT]

I think a 6 inch blade would be about all I would want to do on a KME. As to the play between the base and the clamp, yes there is some. But it's always repeatable every time. If that makes sense. With my base level I know my reading on the stone holder is about one degree off. I keep everything oriented the same direction every time I set it up to sharpen.
I saw you went with the WE, nothing wrong with that either. It should be a nice setup!

Good to know. Thank you sir!

 

[alan0354]

I'm not sure you would just have to shop around. I'm pretty sure that I bought mine from Amazon.

Those files will scratch the blade when testing? If so, that's not good, not better than I hit the spine of each other? I use a knife that has softer blade use it as "standard" and hit the new knife a few times to see how deep is the scar. The scar is very small.

 

[000Robert]

Those files will scratch the blade when testing?

Yep.

If so, that's not good, not better than I hit the spine of each other? I use a knife that has softer blade use it as "standard" and hit the new knife a few times to see how deep is the scar. The scar is very small.

All you need to do is see if the file will bite into the steel. There are a lot of things that will scratch the steel especially if it has sand on it. That's why I test my blades on or as close to the edge bevels as possible. That way a bad scratch won't matter much.

 

[alan0354]

Yep.


All you need to do is see if the file will bite into the steel. There are a lot of things that will scratch the steel especially if it has sand on it. That's why I test my blades on or as close to the edge bevels as possible. That way a bad scratch won't matter much.

Then I stay with my way of testing. The dink is very small on the spine and I don't have to pay money for the file.

Another question for curiosity, heat treat is so important, why people worry so much about the kind of steel used. Seems if they just use middle of the road steel like D2, just concentrate on good heat treat, don't have to spend so much money on good steel.

Besides, the better the edge retention the steel, the more brittle they are, it's not exactly it's all better. I guess I don't quite get people paying hundreds for a "good knife". To me, it's more like a designer handbag of women, all about the name of the designer. So if you only spend $50 on a knife, so you need to sharpen it a little more often, so what!!! Just a question.

 

[000Robert]

Then I stay with my way of testing. The dink is very small on the spine and I don't have to pay money for the file.

Ha ha, those are the cheaper ones. My knives have no dinks on the spines unless maybe it's a user, then it really doesn't matter much. Covid and our brainless leader has made the prices for everything go up. I paid a lot less for mine than what they cost now. It is pretty ridiculous.

 

[alan0354]

Ha ha, those are the cheaper ones. My knives have no dinks on the spines unless maybe it's a user, then it really doesn't matter much. Covid and our brainless leader has made the prices for everything go up. I paid a lot less for mine than what they cost now. It is pretty ridiculous.

I try to buy when it's on sale, I got some good price on amazon. Ha ha, don't get me started on the brainless leader.

 

[cudgee]

There are other threads for political comments.

 

[000Robert]

I try to buy when it's on sale, I got some good price on amazon. Ha ha, don't get me started on the brainless leader.

I didn't see a political comment, did you?

 

[toker]

Another question for curiosity, heat treat is so important, why people worry so much about the kind of steel used. Seems if they just use middle of the road steel like D2, just concentrate on good heat treat, don't have to spend so much money on good steel.

What manufacturers do you believe are doing a poor job at heat treating? Not to mention that D2 isn't exactly the ideal steel for everyone.

Besides, the better the edge retention the steel, the more brittle they are, it's not exactly it's all better. I guess I don't quite get people paying hundreds for a "good knife". To me, it's more like a designer handbag of women, all about the name of the designer. So if you only spend $50 on a knife, so you need to sharpen it a little more often, so what!!! Just a question.

Unless you're using a knife for the wrong purpose, it's not going to break due to be being "brittle". I spend more on knives since I usually only buy USA made knives.

 

[alan0354]

I didn't see a political comment, did you?

Nope.

 

[alan0354]

What manufacturers do you believe are doing a poor job at heat treating? Not to mention that D2 isn't exactly the ideal steel for everyone.


Unless you're using a knife for the wrong purpose, it's not going to break due to be being "brittle". I spend more on knives since I usually only buy USA made knives.

But equivalent to D2 is pretty strong with good heat treat. My question is why spend so much money on a knife?

I can accept this is like designer handbags for women, that's a good reason. I just want to know what quality people get out of a knife that is a few times the price of a decent knife like Steel Will etc. that is only about $70.

I know buying America is a good point, I am just asking about the quality. Sure, you might need to sharpen more often, but do you really buy an expensive knife to open boxes, letters? I use my box cutter even I buy cheaper knives. Like I said, if people treat it as like designer handbag, I can understand. I just don't quite get it otherwise. I definitely do NOT use my knives to cut boxes or open letter even my knives are a lot cheaper.

Actually the reason I brought this up today is because I am working on a very cheap knife that was 40% off on Amazon is it's only $16 after that. I had to open up the DETENT hole on the blade a little to make it easier to open. I used a dimond drill. I was so amazed it's much harder to drill than the $70 Steel Will and some other more expensive brands. Most of them felt the same, this one is particularly hard. So was the liner where I need to smooth out something. Both are harder to grind than the other knives. I can only think that the steel used in that cheap knife is a lot harder. It's the cheapest.

I have a S&W knife that was on sale for $9.95 on Amazon. I tested the hardness by hitting the spine of two knives together and see who take more of a dent. It is at least as good as the other knives that's in $50 to $70 range.

Of cause, I don't have a $300 knife to test. I am just asking whether they are that much better for the price other than the name and status. I guess I look at knife as a tool, self defense and survival in my case. I don't use it as show off, just keep in my pocket and hope never have to take it out.

I have to admit, I have to do work on most of the cheaper knives I have to optimize them, BUT I pay a whole lot less. I have time and it's fun to work on them anyway. Funny the cheapest ones I mentioned need the least amount of work. One of the same brand ( bigger, still under $20) actually does NOT need any work at all. I have close to 20 knives, only 2 that are up to my quality without the need of doing something.

 

[Blade Lab]

Of course you don't need to pay more than $30-$40 to get a perfectly functional knife. People pay more than that because they appreciate the look, feel, and better performance of higher end knives. You can equate it to hand bags in a derogatory sense, or you can equate it to ANY material possession. Does anyone NEED a Mercedes Benz, BMW, Ferrari, etc.? Not really. A Kia will serve the same purpose.

 

[alan0354]

Of course you don't need to pay more than $30-$40 to get a perfectly functional knife. People pay more than that because they appreciate the look, feel, and better performance of higher end knives. You can equate it to hand bags in a derogatory sense, or you can equate it to ANY material possession. Does anyone NEED a Mercedes Benz, BMW, Ferrari, etc.? Not really. A Kia will serve the same purpose.

That's what I think, people just have to be honest about it. Ha ha, I have two newer Mercedes, I can tell for sure they are NOT as reliable as Toyota or Honda. Only thing other than the name is Mercedes safety is un-parallel. But you better save up money to fix them. Yes, I am superficial, I just honestly admit that rather than saying they are better. Well, at least MB is more reliable that BMW and Audi!!! German cars are JUNK!!! German engineering might be best in WWII, forget it today.

Ferrari? That's Fiat!!! You better have back up car, It's going to be in the shop more than in your garage.