Feedback when sharpening on ceramics. Any tricks?

[Obsessed with Edges]

Thanks. Perhaps the "silly" descriptor was a bit strong, but I just don't see why someone would risk severely damaging the apex by ripping off a burr in a felt block, wood block, or cork when you could cut it off without such a risk of apex damage.

The burr is weakened steel; significantly weaker than the steel at the apex behind it. It's weaker because it's either too thin to support itself, or because it's been damaged by the bending back & forth which often happens as the burr is created and 'flipped' from side-to-side, or both. Removing the burr by cutting wood, cork, etc. isn't going to damage the apex behind the burr, assuming the steel is properly heat-treated. The burr gets torn away specifically because it is much weaker than the undamaged steel behind it. If the steel behind the burr were prone to being damaged by cutting wood, cork, etc., there'd be little use for such a blade anyway, as that's part of what they're made to cut, again assuming a proper heat treat and geometry.

Looking from a slightly different angle, there'll be many burrs that'll still be too tough to be removed by such means anyway. Cutting wood or cork really isn't very hard on a decently heat-treated edge, in most any steel; some burrs won't be fazed by cutting into either material, so the 'strong' steel behind the burrs won't be damaged in any way at all, in cutting these materials. Any steel that is damaged by it is too weak to be of use on a knife edge, and it's going to come off eventually anyway, in using the blade. It can be done by cutting into wood to strip the burr now, or in 'whittling' wood with the blade later. It needs to be gone, and the sooner the better.


David

 

[Steel_Drake]

David,

I understand all of that, I just don't understand the mechanics that would allow the weakened burr to literally be torn off from the apex behind it without leaving some microscopic jaggedness behind on the apex? I would be shocked if the burr could be torn away while leaving a perfectly clean apex line. In any case, I don't see the need for such approaches since the burr can simply be sheared off, leaving a clean apex line.

Maybe I'll get a cork and give it a try when I have time.

 

[Jamesh Bond]

Thanks a lot to everyone who took the time to share here. Your generosity is incredibly valued.

Duh, Cliff Stamp. Lol. That was driving me crazy.

These are all things I've studied dozens of times, but clearly needed to be reminded of since my end result is missing something. Sometimes one can know something but take many cycles of repetition to actually and fully "realize" it. It really helps to have all the things I've learned from you guys for review here in one thread to reference again. It also helps to have things re-explained in a different way. This is going in my bookmarks.

It's good to know I already have the knowledge I need. A relief, well. Been finding my bevel how Martin, David, Jason, and Chris have mentioned. Been aware of all these concepts. Been studying videos. Been using Japanese style on my bench stone. Been using pencil eraser to clean. Been using higher angles to de burr when using ceramics.

It seems Occam's Razor again holds true:
I simply need to practice more, reminding myself to observe my Ceramic stones and these principles closely. Then my desired results should hopefully follow. I may also need to change my expectations.

My next goal is the ability to deburr without raising the angle, using my Ceramics. I can do this already on my Fine DMT, but the less forgiving Medium and Fine Ceramics will not put up with any sloppiness, which you guys showed me is exactly my problem. It's going to take a lot of attention and sensitivity to get there, but it'll be nice to not HAVE to microbevel if I don't want to. Up till now, it seemed the only way I could remove that wire edge with the ceramics was to force that high angle. Very frustrating since I didn't have that problem on my cooperative diamonds!

Once I have the skill set needed to do THAT, I have a feeling anything else I tackle will be breeze! (please correct me if I am mistaken on any of this)

PS. Regarding the felt and cork removal, by ripping off the burr, I've never understood this. The first thing I learned as a kid was that a wire edge is undesirable because it only feels sharp until you use it, then rips off, revealing a duller edge. To my mind, this technique just mimics that effect. What makes it different? As I understand it, that wire edge is a weak, sloppy extention of the apex, so why not de burr by actually shaping the apex, instead of ripping metal off? Or, why not just use it till it comes off instead of an extra process to do it? What makes this effective?

Skills like this are so rare these days. The ability and willingness to share, without personal gain no less, is infinitesimal.

You are gentlemen and scholars. And again, I sincerely thank you for your time, patience, and most of all, interest.

Take care guys.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

David,

I understand all of that, I just don't understand the mechanics that would allow the weakened burr to literally be torn off from the apex behind it without leaving some microscopic jaggedness behind on the apex? I would be shocked if the burr could be torn away while leaving a perfectly clean apex line. In any case, I don't see the need for such approaches since the burr can simply be sheared off, leaving a clean apex line.

Maybe I'll get a cork and give it a try when I have time.

You're right, in the sense there'll still be some loose, tattered steel left behind after the burr comes off. This will always be true, regardless of what methods are used to take the burr off, including deburring on a stone (and the stone is always making a little bit of new burr, even in that process). That loose tattered stuff at the apex doesn't mean the apex is damaged; it's just a little bit of the already weakened burr left over. And usually, it's minimal enough that it'll come off by whatever follows the deburring, like stropping on bare leather or on the jeans, or simply as the knife is used, as I mentioned earlier. Point being, there's nothing to worry about in deburring in wood or cork, or felt or whatever, because the steel that's prone to being 'damaged' by it is already weakened steel that needs to come off, one way or another.

And it's not a given, that the edge will even be particularly rough after the burr comes off. The two pics below are of a Victorinox paring knife's edge, after I'd done some pretty heavy scrubbing on a medium Spyderco bench hone, which is what created the burr/wire. You can see part of the burr (wire edge) has already broken off, and another part of it is still clinging to the edge. Notice how clean the edge is, even immediately after part of that burr has torn away from it:

The remainder of that wire edge was subsequently removed by drawing the edge through wood, BTW. It worked pretty well in this case, because the burr was very, very fine and already starting to break away, as shown in the pics. I followed that with some stropping, which left the edge as sharp as ever. Even as 'soft' as that steel is purported to be, it held up fine after the cutting in wood, leaving no damage to the apex in it's wake.

And there'll always be some jaggedness left on even the cleanest and sharpest of edges, especially when viewed at the microscopic level. That's the result of using abrasive grit to shape the edge, and will be present even in the strongest and healthiest steel at the edge, after the weakened steel has come off.


David

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

David,

Great pics! thank you :thumbup:

Jamesh,

I'm no expert, so take this as sharing on sharpening journey. At this stage I can only admit that there're steels that with my current technique cannot be cleanly deburred on ceramic such as Spyderco sintered stones. VG10 (Spyderco) and D2 are some of them that I still cannot do. I'm not saying it can't be done. The masters perhaps can do it.
For me, I'd move onto lower grit strop at light pressure. Example DMT EE finish (3 micron), followed with white compound (10 micron). The light touch hopefully removes the burr while the 10 micron size allow for more margin of error. (Check old thread on 'balance strop' and Bluntcut's theory behind that). I only know it worked when I struggled with Spyderco VG10.

Theoretically, any abrasive harder than the steel should work. However, the key is to have it 'cushioned' (whether fix or moving), to get the right pressure to just enough to remove the burr. Some combination of steel and abrasive just requires too high a skill.
Or as Martin puts it: too much QC required.

I used to chase single combo (stone & strop) for all steels. Found out doesn't work best, but for EDU, adequate.

 

[HeavyHanded]

Personally I still find it difficult (not impossible) to deburr at the same grinding angle on ceramics and Arkansas stones.

The Bluntcut defined edge drag method is a big help in this regard. I used to keep a hardwood dowel in my gear bag for just this purpose, now I use a piece of PEX tubing. In most cases I don't even bother with that, but then I seldom use my ceramics or Arkansas anymore.

As to deburring by running across cork or wood etc, I find it to work well on machine made burrs - very small, very small attachment point, like foil. I also find it to work well on most burrs if done often and used in conjunction with continued passes on abrasive.

Somewhere on one of my first "Washboard user" videos I was demonstrating the "drag on wood and backhone" on wet/dry, thinking I would still have to do a few leading passes to completely eliminate the burr. Stopped to inspect and lo and behold there was no burr to remove. Early and often is the key to that method, expecting cork or even wood to cleanly pull a burr of any size off the edge by itself is not a good idea.

Normally I just remove them at the same angle I was grinding, only elevating the spine to reduce very large ones prior to returning at the original angle - I drop back down while I can still feel the burr. I do use microbevels on occasion, but not all the time - a freehand edge is already slightly convex, no need to microbevel for added strength and I don't like to rely on it for burr removal. Mostly used to shortcut the process, going from coarse or medium surface to a very fine one for a few passes to reduce the amount of steel and time needed to refine an edge and/or tweak the apex for a desired finish.

To Jamesh, is a worthy goal - once you can reliably deburr off ceramics at the original angle across a range of steels you might very well consider yourself a burrMaster or very nearly so. Off of waterstones, wet/dry, diamonds etc will be easy street.

 

[Jamesh Bond]

David, way to illustrate the answer there.

Heavy, if you have difficulty with ceramics, I'm starting to second guess my stubborn desire to even use them. The edge I straight get off my DMT Fine is wicked, and stays sharp longer, anyway. Im done in a couple minutes, then end up spending half an hour on my ceramics. THEN end up with an edge that is rarely even better. In fact, it's almost always worse.

You guys just described something I've long suspected, but refused to believe: ceramics are going to leave a tiny wire edge no matter what. And the most efficient way to minimize what you can is to slightly raise the angle.

My obsession with this little wire seems to be unfounded. It just seemed more visible than my other fine medium abrasives, probably owing to the high reflecting from the burnishing effect described.

This thread has been awesome, guys. I keep learning so much. I'll say it again, it's CRAZY how long you can know something, but not really KNOW it, isn't it?

Thx.

 

[Steel_Drake]

Jamesh,

When I was learning to sharpen, I found solid sintered ceramics like the Spyderco M or F incredibly slow and frustrating to use in extended grinding on an edge bevel.

Once I started separating shaping the edge bevel from setting the apex at a slightly higher angle, I found that solid sintered ceramics could be quite useful for setting an apex microbevel with ~5-10 passes per side at a higher angle than the edge bevel, as they can generate a polished apex without any of the potential apex rounding a friable abrasive can induce.

For extended grinding in shaping an edge bevel I would personally prefer almost any other type of abrasive (diamond plate, aluminum oxide oilstone, silicon carbide oilstone, waterstone) for being faster, less likely to load, less prone to burnishing, and less prone to forming stubborn, difficult to remove burrs.

 

[HeavyHanded]

David, way to illustrate the answer there.

Heavy, if you have difficulty with ceramics, I'm starting to second guess my stubborn desire to even use them. The edge I straight get off my DMT Fine is wicked, and stays sharp longer, anyway. Im done in a couple minutes, then end up spending half an hour on my ceramics. THEN end up with an edge that is rarely even better. In fact, it's almost always worse.

You guys just described something I've long suspected, but refused to believe: ceramics are going to leave a tiny wire edge no matter what. And the most efficient way to minimize what you can is to slightly raise the angle.

My obsession with this little wire seems to be unfounded. It just seemed more visible than my other fine medium abrasives, probably owing to the high reflecting from the burnishing effect described.

This thread has been awesome, guys. I keep learning so much. I'll say it again, it's CRAZY how long you can know something, but not really KNOW it, isn't it?

Thx.

Don't give up on it, just recognize there are 'best practices' with any means and you're bucking it a bit with what you want to do. It can still be done and your skill will improve for it.

 

[Steel_Drake]

David,

I did a little experimenting with alternative deburring methods based on your comments, repeatedly deliberately creating a burr on a Calton Cutlery necker i have in 1095 using an Atoma 1200 diamond plate, and then attempting to remove that burr using a couple of different methods. The apex was re-burred after each run.

Below are a series of images taken with my USB Microscope at combined 50x optical and 4-5x digital zoom:

1) The first burr, created to test burr removal by pulling the apex through wood:

2) Side and head on images of the edge bevel after the first pull through wood:

3) Side and head on images after a second pull through wood:

At this point, a noticeable burr remained and the apex was unable to push cut newsprint with the grain at 90 degrees.

I then recreated a full burr in order to test the cork pull through method:

1) Burr before any deburring attempt:

2) Side and head on images after first pull through cork:

3) Side and head on images after several additional pulls through cork:

At this point, a noticeable burr remained and the apex was unable to push cut newsprint with the grain at 90 degrees.

Finally, I created a new burr to test shearing off the burr and back sharpening out the resulting microbevel:

1) Burr before any deburring attempt:

2) After 2 alternating edge-leading only low force high angle passes per side, and 5 alternating edge leading only low force passes per side at the edge bevel angle:

At this point, the apex would cleanly slice newsprint, cleanly push cut newsprint with the grain at 90 degrees, and would somewhat push cut newsprint across the grain at 90 degrees.

As far as I could tell based on this experiment, pulling the apex through wood or cork were not particularly effective means of removing the burr, and since they did not actually tear off the burr, they could not leave behind a ragged apex behind the burr. On the other hand, the shearing approach successfully removed the overwhelming majority of the burr visible at the scale my microscope operates at, and left a relatively clean, straight apex line.

I subsequently repeated this experiment for my YouTube channel using the same knife and a Norton India F stone and found precisely the same results. Repeated pulls through wood or cork were unable to remove the burr, however the shearing method was able to remove the majority of the burr and leave an apex that would cleanly slice newsprint, push cut it with the grain, and somewhat push cut it across the grain off the India F.

If anyone has had success with pull through deburring methods, can you please explain to me where I'm going wrong with the technique once I post the video? Thanks.

 

[ecallahan]

I would consider myself still a beginner. I wouldn't really but after listening to those with more knowledge I feel that way. That being said I've been able to successfully sharpen S30V down to softer steels like SAK uses and AUS8 on the Spyderco stones. You need a light touch on the medium stone when finishing. That and a felt block usually leave me burr-free from what I can tell. I get a hair shaving and phonebook slicing edge - clean slicing at all angles. Most time hair popping. I use a much harder touch on SIC stones when grinding for instance. Light finishing strokes at the same sharpening angle then a couple passes through a felt block works on most steels for me.

One thing I can't do consistently on the Spyderco ceramics is feel a burr. I use a sharpie to mark the edge which helps me a lot. I am striving to get rid of the sharpie.

 

[Jamesh Bond]

Thanks ecallahan. The light touch is DEFINITLY the way to go on ceramics. They've always been troublesome in my use, especially on the simpler, more malleable steels. As soon as I learned to lighten up, the problem diminished 10 fold. Never enough to completely make the wire edge disappear, but made it almost impossible to detect.

What I learned in this thread, unless someone corrects me, is that the wire edge I'm seeing is nearly unavoidable. I was just too fixated on it. Better technique, combined with more realistic expectations, with a dash of understanding the principles, should remedy all that.

Ironically, the secret of a light touch is where I really started having the second problem of my OP, angle control. Going that light made it impossible for me to feel anything, especially using my preferred method of holding the hone in one hand, and blade in the other.

I have decided my new approach to these ceramics will be to use them to maintain my nice EDC knives, as the light touch won't remove enough metal to significantly alter my edge, and the fact that I would be honing goes perfectly with my tendency to slightly microbevel while using them.

In the meantime, I'll practice using them in different ways on my cheaper knives, so I can get to know them. If any revelations are reached, YAY I'll transfer the gains to my overall sharpening program.

As always, if there are any flaws in my logic, someone please correct me.

Thx.

 

[Jamesh Bond]

David,

I did a little experimenting with alternative deburring methods based on your comments, repeatedly deliberately creating a burr on a Calton Cutlery necker i have in 1095 using an Atoma 1200 diamond plate, and then attempting to remove that burr using a couple of different methods. The apex was re-burred after each run.

Below are a series of images taken with my USB Microscope at combined 50x optical and 4-5x digital zoom:

1) The first burr, created to test burr removal by pulling the apex through wood:

2) Side and head on images of the edge bevel after the first pull through wood:

3) Side and head on images after a second pull through wood:

At this point, a noticeable burr remained and the apex was unable to push cut newsprint with the grain at 90 degrees.

I then recreated a full burr in order to test the cork pull through method:

1) Burr before any deburring attempt:

2) Side and head on images after first pull through cork:

3) Side and head on images after several additional pulls through cork:

At this point, a noticeable burr remained and the apex was unable to push cut newsprint with the grain at 90 degrees.

Finally, I created a new burr to test shearing off the burr and back sharpening out the resulting microbevel:

1) Burr before any deburring attempt:

2) After 2 alternating edge-leading only low force high angle passes per side, and 5 alternating edge leading only low force passes per side at the edge bevel angle:

At this point, the apex would cleanly slice newsprint, cleanly push cut newsprint with the grain at 90 degrees, and would somewhat push cut newsprint across the grain at 90 degrees.

As far as I could tell based on this experiment, pulling the apex through wood or cork were not particularly effective means of removing the burr, and since they did not actually tear off the burr, they could not leave behind a ragged apex behind the burr. On the other hand, the shearing approach successfully removed the overwhelming majority of the burr visible at the scale my microscope operates at, and left a relatively clean, straight apex line.

I subsequently repeated this experiment for my YouTube channel using the same knife and a Norton India F stone and found precisely the same results. Repeated pulls through wood or cork were unable to remove the burr, however the shearing method was able to remove the majority of the burr and leave an apex that would cleanly slice newsprint, push cut it with the grain, and somewhat push cut it across the grain off the India F.

If anyone has had success with pull through deburring methods, can you please explain to me where I'm going wrong with the technique once I post the video? Thanks.

VERY awesome. What I see there resembles what I described as my wire edge. Even if it ripped off, your magnification shows a pretty functional edge underneath.

De burr at high angle works for me, since I'm familiar. Once I get better at matching my existing angle, I think I'll have better luck when I use the lower strokes to minimize the microbevel.

BTW, what is your YouTube channel, please?

Thx.

 

[Jamesh Bond]

David, I still think anyone answered one of my questions a few posts back.

Regarding deburring those small wire edges using a cork, why do it deliberately if it will come off with use in the same way?

Thanks!

 

[Steel_Drake]

Jamesh,

My YouTube channel is here.

Also, the video I made trying to deburr by pulling through a piece of wood and a cork before shearing off the burr is finally up:

[video=youtube;_STUM1z8iJM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_STUM1z8iJM[/video]

 

[Jamesh Bond]

Thanks man.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

David, I still think anyone answered one of my questions a few posts back.

Regarding deburring those small wire edges using a cork, why do it deliberately if it will come off with use in the same way?

Thanks!

In small part, it's just a matter of convenience. When I use such means, it's usually just because there's a piece of wood or whatever at hand when I'm finishing up a sharpening task.

In the other, much more significant part, burrs are highly variable, and some burrs will be removed by cork or wood or whatever, and others won't. In my own uses, I've noticed steels like 420HC at somewhat lower hardness, and VG-10 and ATS-34 all can produce burrs that are extremely ductile, tenacious and tough, and won't respond much at all to anything but abrasion on stones or aggressive strops to remove them. Other steels like fairly hard 1095 (example: Schrade's old USA blades) are a breeze in deburring, as a swipe on the jeans or a bare leather belt will take care of the burrs. But there's still value in attempting to remove them in wood or whatever, because if that doesn't work, then the burrs likely will persist on the edge in use as well. So it's good to at least try it, as it'll tell you a lot about the character of the burrs themselves, as well as the steel, and gives a feel for what's needed to refine edges on such steels in the long run. It's also valuable in determining how your skills and abilities are evolving over time, as it'll tell you how much refinement should still be done on the stones, before attempting deburring. In my own sharpening history, the tough burrs on 420HC, VG-10 and ATS-34 have gotten easier to deal with, because I now know I need to go a bit further on the stone work before the edge is ready for deburring/stropping. And in many cases now, I don't even strop my edges anymore, as they often don't really need it because I've worked a lot harder on refining on the stones.


David

 

[HeavyHanded]

David, I still think anyone answered one of my questions a few posts back.

Regarding deburring those small wire edges using a cork, why do it deliberately if it will come off with use in the same way?

Thanks!

Keep in mind, the burr prevents further refinement of the edge. As the attachment point gets down to micron and perhaps submicron, it does become less important to remove it 100% at least on a user's knife or on a rougher finish. However, the edge will always be sharper with the burr removed and some additional refinement.

For me, removal of the burr in any fashion is always followed up with some form of additional work, even if only stropping on plain paper or minimum a few light passes on the stone following its perceived elimination.

To me, running across wood, high density plastic etc is a means to weaken the burr in conjunction with further abrasion or burnishing - it is next to useless on its own with the exception of the absolute smallest of detectable burrs.


It is very interesting to experiment with non-abrasion methods of burr removal, they can sometimes be so tenacious is a wonder why we obsess over removal as knuts, and why the general public could care less if they're cutting with a burr or wire edge after abuse on a grooved steel or pull through.

 

[Jamesh Bond]

True words.

And FWIW, the smallest of burrs are what I'm referring to in this post. No problems with anything but those produced with my ceramics.

I will say, I took my medium Profile to my CQC-7A last night. I ended up with zero perceiveable wire edge, so took the fine to it and ended up with a nearly flat mirror. Turns out my technique and perception are pretty solid. Just needed to approach the task with a different head.

My problem was indeed with my expectations and observation. Changing my approach and mindset to those 2 things allowed better application of all the principles we've been discussing.

I also confirmed I really like the toothier edge left by my diamonds more.

Love those profile rods, and the ability to use them. But for my uses, I'm going DMT next time I grab some kit.

Or Atoma. Oh boy, I sense another thread coming.

When I win the Power Ball. . .

 

[HeavyHanded]

You're ready for waterstones......