Feedback when sharpening on ceramics. Any tricks?

Jamesh,

In case you look for new home for the profile stones ... Shoot me an email, ok?
I heard it's highly praised but has been discontinued. ;)

Martin,

Is waterstone really the next step? I'm currently happy with the DMT, Spyderco UF and various grits on my WB.
I'm curious, as you said we're obsessed with the burr and the general public don't give it a d*mn. :confused:
 
Chris.
That's the reason I went for em! They really are awesome. With these, I really don't think I'll have need of anything else. But I would like to try Waterstones, mostly for fun. I hear they're truly wicked for reprofiling, too.


I agree spot on with what Martin said. 95 percent of knife users don't care about what us Knuts obsess over. And they're still having no problem cutting stuff.

Food for thought.
💩😺
 
Chris,

Based on my own experience, waterstone set-ups really come into their own when you want to run more polished apex finishes. They are so much faster for prepping an edge bevel for a polished apex compared to the alternatives that it isn't really even funny due to leaving a much finer scratch pattern than their grit rating in comparison to the alternatives.

They can also be very useful if you use a three step approach to sharpening since highly friable waterstones can work to minimize burr formation (through slightly rounding the apex as it plows through the slurry) and can quickly shape an edge bevel to a state ready to have an apex set with a microbevel using a hard non-friable abrasive.

I only bother to use my waterstones when I intend to run an apex finish of about JIS 3k equivalent or above, otherwise I'm likely to just use a Norton India fine or an Atoma 1200.
 
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Is that what you think ?

there's obviously something I'm missing if I'm having difficulties after over a decade of sharpening.
Click to expand...

Yes . . . an Edge Pro.

Alternatively you could have locking callibratable joints added to your limbs and a clamping mechanism that locks your torso onto the table top so you won't be tottering around. Throw in some telephoto eye implants and titanium end effectors, er I mean, hands on the ends of your arms and you will be all set to compete with the Edge Pro / accomplish this task you have set for your self.

Just to be clear you are expecting your self to have the ability to judge angles between the imagined center plane of an amorphous object and the flat face of the stone down to a quarter degree or less.

Then
consistently hold and maintain that angle, switching back and forth side to side on the blade fifty or a hundred strokes . . . even when you are tired or otherwise distracted.

And are wondering why this isn't working out so well. Do I have that about right ?

Yah . . . trust me . . . hand sharpening is a bunch of wasted motion and guessing. Frankly it is a wonder you / we / all of us do as well as we do.

Hand sharpening is fun. Like learning to walk on your hands.
When I want to go down to the store I find I rarely, any more, walk on my hands.

Call me lazy.
 
Wowbagger,

I don't think any of those things are necessary to achieve great results when sharpening, and actually, if a person uses a three step method, all that precise angle control at the edge bevel shaping stage is mostly wasted since the apex is set at a higher angle with the last 5-10 passes per side.

Really, to me the big question with freehand sharpening vs. guided systems is this: Are you willing to make the time investment up from to develop the skills and muscle memory to become proficient at freehanding, and thereafter be able to sharpen your knives very quickly, or, would you rather invest significant money in a system that is easy to learn to use, but which is time consuming to sharpen individual knives.

I decided I'd rather pay the time cost up front, and I'm glad I did, because now I can get one of my knives from butter knife dull to push cutting newsprint across the grain at 90 degrees in 10 minutes. Five if I optimize my abrasive selection.
 
I don't think the other techniques are "silly" as you say.
Click to expand...

Drawing the edge through a block of wood to remove the burr is . . . in a word . . . silly.
It is even sillier when it is done on the edge of a stone pond with grit all over it as I have seen in videos.

Now lets look at deburring on the edge pro. I normally pull the stone edge trailing. I get some extruded or burnish formed bur from this. I would probably get less if I followed the rules and went back and forth as the edge pro vids show. I don't go against the edge for two reasons :

  1. I don't want to wear the stones. I have a real problem with going against the edge and wearing the stones. This is probably why I gave up hand held sharpening early on. For the most part. You know what ? I still have my original King water stone that I bought in 1985 or so and it is still nice and thick even though I used it a whole heck of a a lot WITH A JIG before I got my Nortons and then My Shaptons and then the Edge Pro .
  2. I don't want to bang into the edge with grit.
    I can just imagine all that slurry and loose grit colliding with the edge and banging it up. I just can't do it.


So I have a burr. Now I take as was recommended some passes against the edge, one or two per side, very light. But often I don't make the sharpening angle steeper I just simply make the pass just against the edge and lift.

Now I make two or three pull only passes alternating sides and we are done.

If that doesn't do it, say we are sharpening cheep stainless then I might make two passes per side against the edge, swap sides and two then one and one.

This is done only on the very finest stone. All other passes with coarse stones are trailing edge unless I am taking off a bunch of metal on the roundy round con vexed edge with the coarse stones then it is like sawing logs and it just makes sense to go back and forth.

As far as spending most of the motion just back of the edge then going up to the edge and taking a couple hits there then going back behind the edge that is how I sharpen drill bits by hand. It works very well.

Still if you think about it on a jig all you have to do is take like a third of all that motion, basically right on the edge and be done.

Sharpening while holding the stone in one hand the knife in the other is good. I made these, cut offs from Nortons stones (4000 and 8000) using the ends for polishing the sides of blades and I found myself using the sides for sharpening touch ups . . . pretty much a substitute for stropping if you will. Most of my work edges are a bit too banged up microscopically to take to a strop but still cut well enough. Some times I don't want to compete with The Chef for counter space to use my Edge Pro while she is cooking dinner so I sit on the couch and use these stones dry, after all there are three sides to the stone that are useable. I use a jewelers visor and get the light in such a way I can see a shadow / gap at the edge. When I just close that gap that means I am ON THE EDGE and I take a pass. Sloppy but effective.



I hate the imprecision of it and use the Edge Pro when ever I can.

By the way gang that is ZDP-189 (plenty hard judging by how well it holds up in use). No prob with micro chipping. Only chips if I cut wire ties. I learned not to cut wire ties with this knife and never a chip since.

HeavyHanded,
Those are some fine illustrations. You are obviously a professional illustrator or could be if you so desired. NICE !

And yes I am learning stuff . . . reluctantly . . . kicking and screaming all the way to the ice cream shop. :)
 
I got your weak wire edge from burnishing and folding back and forth right here bubba.

Did he say six or eight burnishings to basically REdraw out that bur to resharpen it that many cycles between work sessions before he files it off ? Yah I think he did. It gets harder from work hardening not weaker.

Granted this isn’t exactly what we are talking about but we are cutting wood here with a burr that has been folded back and forth

[video=youtube;prC0K-2uIjc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prC0K-2uIjc.[/video]

He shows the super quicky method and gets some curls.
If you are intrigued look at the last minute of this vid to see the results of PROPER card scraper sharpening by one of the greatest master woodworkers still alive in the world.

NOW THERE’S SOME CURLS !

Anyway the burr isn’t weak. Ripping it off is going to do damage. Don’t.

[video=youtube;f7DflhyGFDU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7DflhyGFDU[/video]
 
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Wowbagger.

Some folks enjoy possessing the skill to do something without the need to rely on a contraption. You may find this shocking, but lots of blades have been made very sharp by hand for a very long time.

Those of us who go outside and use our knives don't always lug around an Edge Pro. It's kind of heavy in a pack and takes up space that could be used for something that isn't replaceable with a skill.
 
Chris "Anagarika";16383404 said:
Jamesh,

In case you look for new home for the profile stones ... Shoot me an email, ok?
I heard it's highly praised but has been discontinued. ;)

Martin,

Is waterstone really the next step? I'm currently happy with the DMT, Spyderco UF and various grits on my WB.
I'm curious, as you said we're obsessed with the burr and the general public don't give it a d*mn. :confused:
Click to expand...

Well...next step if one already has a Washboard anyway! And I still think of the WB as a ghetto waterstone using silicon carbide (mostly) as the abrasive.

The best and worst thing about waterstones is they come in a lot of flavors, between how hard/dense/hydrophilic the binder is, how tough or how high the abrasive content is by volume or weight etc etc. Is rare to find someone who enjoys them and only has one set. No matter how fancy or expensive that one set is you will still be curious about the properties of other lines, maybe more so after you find one you really like. And then coming back to ones you might have written off only to find they actually work very well...

Most people don't know how to test an edge for sharp except by regular use, they wouldn't care if the edge was a big, gnarly burr or a clean 320 grit edge - if it breezes through food packaging and cuts in the kitchen they consider it sharp.

The only arena I have found any non-edge tool knuts to be impressed by the edges I make is on my hatchets and machetes. The stark difference from an off-the-shelf to a tuned up one is night and day, a difference that is universally appreciated when folk are processing firewood.

After that I know a couple of foodie types and they appreciate the difference as well on their kitchen knives, but only if they cook for more than one or two people and don't use a processor for all their chopping and dicing.
 
The comparison of the card scraper burr is 100% different than what's discussed here, being WAY heavier than the weakened & thin burrs that would be broken off in wood or cork. As a card scraper, that burr isn't going to be torn off in wood anyway (obviously). It also hasn't been bent back & forth a bunch of times like a flipped burr on a knife's edge, but instead pushed in one direction away from the scraper's edge, as with using too-heavy pressure in sharpening and rolling a knife's edge on the stone. Nor is it anywhere near as thin as the burr were discussing in this thread.

The weak & thin burrs that break off in wood or cork or whatever, are the proof in themselves that they are in fact weak, and no longer exhibit the characteristics of properly hardened and tempered steel. Breaking them off isn't going to damage anything but the burr itself. Wood can't damage decently hardened & tempered steel so easily, else every steel woodworking tool ever made would be rendered useless, including the card scraper. And the 'work hardening' effect, when taken further as on a knife edge's repeatedly 'flipped' burr, makes it harder and A LOT MORE BRITTLE (therefore weaker). That's why it'll break off.

Also consider that cabinet (card) scrapers are only hardened up to low 50s HRC max, and current mfrs' specs allow their hardness range down into the mid-high or even low 40s HRC. Older-generation cabinet scrapers were reputedly down into the 30s HRC. So, even if the card scraper's burr 'work hardens' a bit with the filing/burnishing, it's still likely not as hard, therefore not as brittle, as a work-hardened burr formed by flipping back & forth on the edge of a knife blade in the mid-high 50s HRC or harder. Again, it's a completely different kind of burr.


David
 
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Wowbagger said:
I got your weak wire edge from burnishing and folding back and forth right here bubba.

Did he say six or eight burnishings to basically REdraw out that bur to resharpen it that many cycles between work sessions before he files it off ? Yah I think he did. It gets harder from work hardening not weaker.

Granted this isn’t exactly what we are talking about but we are cutting wood here with a burr that has been folded back and forth

[video=youtube;prC0K-2uIjc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prC0K-2uIjc.[/video]

He shows the super quicky method and gets some curls.
If you are intrigued look at the last minute of this vid to see the results of PROPER card scraper sharpening by one of the greatest master woodworkers still alive in the world.

NOW THERE’S SOME CURLS !

Anyway the burr isn’t weak. Ripping it off is going to do damage. Don’t.

[video=youtube;f7DflhyGFDU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7DflhyGFDU[/video]
Click to expand...


Fantastic videos! I might never have checked to see how that's done as I don't use card scrapers but have always been interested.

That's quite a difference from the burrs one gets sharpening though, those are bona fide pressure burr plastic deformation roll over burrs done with no abrasion whatsoever. They are massive compared to most that are made from a sharpening stone. And yes, they will work harden till failure, especially considering they've never been folded at the base more than a few degrees.

The ones on your knife edge are being worked back and forth the equivalent of your inclusive. In my philosophy, they should be taken off with a minimum of folding while still relatively strong. Once they fold a few times there's no way of knowing how tough the attachment point still is and how much of it might be reasonably aligned but left behind on the edge.
 
Martin,

Thanks. I'm not going after waterstones at this moment then .. Another rabbit hole I hope I don't fall into anytime soon. :)
 
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