Feeling a bit disappointed

kidcongo said:
Firstly its your knife and you have to be happy with it. If it's "like-new" and you don't like it TNK should return it in good faith, which I am sure they will.

Having said that, it's important to understand these are not true "Damascus Steel" blades, though that term is used universally to decribe them these days. They are 'pattern-welded' blades. The pattern is not created by the acid etching, the etching simply reveals the pattern that is there. These patterns exists in three dimensions, and are not uniform though the stock of the blade, like you might think. The swirls of the "Spirograph" effect get larger and smaller, and the side of the knife simply reveals one plane of that pattern, which may contain "smudges", which are in fact the places where the pattern is transitioning from one steel to another. When the blades are ground it is impossible to predict where these smudges will be, so a portion of the cost of Damascus blades is to cover discarding blades that turn out very smudged, that customers would reject. All of the CRK patterns have these smudges on them, in varying degrees, with some very sought-after perfect patterns popping up from time to time. The ladder Damascus seems to the least prone, and the smudges are almost unnoticeable in the raindrop due to its already mostly random nature.

That is the crazy crux of the Damascus blade issue. The repetitive pattern appeals to our OCD, but the pattern itself is often flawed, which annoys us! CRK could issue only perfect DT Damascus blades, but they would have to discard a hell of a lot more blades than they do.

Good luck with whatever you choose!!
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Great explanation, thank you:thumbup:
 
magicblade said:
Noted, thank you :thumbup:
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Sure!

For the record, this is my large......

SpiroBlade_zpshfyxg6ra.jpg
 
magicblade said:
That's a good point. Thanks for the replies everyone, Im not trying to be a pain in the butt but as knife enthusiasts you guys know that some times we are bother by different stuff, early lock up, late lock up, scratches on handles, different kind of finishes on the blade, etc, while most people don't even pay attention or don't really care about it. I guess I was just expecting something a little bit different based on the pictures I had seen before. But it still bother me and my OCD :p
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Quite understandable..Like Unit stated, everyone is different..
Not sure if it's an issue with the etch or materials being washed out a bit.
 
I can completely understand your frustrations. I would be upset also. However, I would end up using the knife for edc purposes. So it would probably get all marked up anyhow.

Wha are your plans for this blade? Use it? Safe queen?
 
Lone_Wolfe said:
Sure!

For the record, this is my large......

SpiroBlade_zpshfyxg6ra.jpg
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I think it looks better than mine in the sense of the small inperfections being more subtle and blending better over all.
bhyde said:
Quite understandable..Like Unit stated, everyone is different..
Not sure if it's an issue with the etch or materials being washed out a bit.
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I'd like to know this as well, it'll be awesome if there was a way to cover those little blurry spots.
Gizler00 said:
I can completely understand your frustrations. I would be upset also. However, I would end up using the knife for edc purposes. So it would probably get all marked up anyhow.

Wha are your plans for this blade? Use it? Safe queen?
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At this point if I decide to keep it, it will definitely be a user. I guess if I keep it I won't be afraid of messing up the blade and it will make a hell of an EDC :)
 
kidcongo said:
Firstly its your knife and you have to be happy with it. If it's "like-new" and you don't like it TNK should return it in good faith, which I am sure they will.

Having said that, it's important to understand these are not true "Damascus Steel" blades, though that term is used universally to decribe them these days. They are 'pattern-welded' blades. The pattern is not created by the acid etching, the etching simply reveals the pattern that is there. These patterns exists in three dimensions, and are not uniform though the stock of the blade, like you might think. The swirls of the "Spirograph" effect get larger and smaller, and the side of the knife simply reveals one plane of that pattern, which may contain "smudges", which are in fact the places where the pattern is transitioning from one steel to another. When the blades are ground it is impossible to predict where these smudges will be, so a portion of the cost of Damascus blades is to cover discarding blades that turn out very smudged, that customers would reject. All of the CRK patterns have these smudges on them, in varying degrees, with some very sought-after perfect patterns popping up from time to time. The ladder Damascus seems to the least prone, and the smudges are almost unnoticeable in the raindrop due to its already mostly random nature.

That is the crazy crux of the Damascus blade issue. The repetitive pattern appeals to our OCD, but the pattern itself is often flawed, which annoys us! CRK could issue only perfect DT Damascus blades, but they would have to discard a hell of a lot more blades than they do.

Good luck with whatever you choose!!
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Well explained Cody!

Let me finish your sentence "CRK could issue only perfect DT Damascus blades, but they would have to discard a hell of a lot more blades than they do." ...... and that would went straight into the prices of all damascus blade CR knives, as somehow such extra costs needs to covered.

To the thread opener: you are not a pain in the ...... at all. We all having expectations when buying a knife. Particularly when buying an expensive knife and the appearance of a damascus pattern is a major point for liking or disliking the overall showup of a knife. Because that is why we choose damascus. Dont we?

In Germany you can return each and every online purchase by law within 2 weeks, without having to explain yourself (the goods needs to be unused and in the same new condition, of course). It is a kind of buyer protection, as you cannot get the goods in your hands like in a regular shop. Dont know how this is handled ithe US.

Stefan
 
Good morning,

First, you have every right to return the knife for a refund or an exchange- and I do clearly remember your communication asking for photos of the blades we have on hand but as I explained since we moved to Florida I don't have daily access to the inventory in our Atlanta distribution center.

Also, I am working all day today so feel free to call me on the toll free number on the website.

Sorry that you were disappointed - as others have said Damascus blades are not only variable based on the etching and welding process but more importantly a matter of personal taste.

I will resolve this for you to your satisfaction.

Neil @ TNK





magicblade said:
I got my new large sebenza TNK spirograph damascus today and was kind of disappointed at the quality of the pattern. Im well aware that it's not suppose to be perfect and wasn't expecting it to be but Im just not happy with it. I got 4 other damascus sebenzas and non of them have this type of inconsistency. I've also seen pictures of the same knife posted on the spirograph damascus thread and images online and haven't seen one like mine, it amost looks like they smeared the metal specially right on the middle of the blade.
I think for a $700 knife I was expecting more when it comes to quality control, I know for sure I wouldn't sell a blade like that.
I'd like to know your opinion in regards to this, thanks in advance.
Best regards
Jair



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...

To set the record straight- lets back up a bit. You wanted to return the knife due to not liking the Damascus- no dealer is overjoyed to get a return and in this case we were out of these and had many waiting for more - I did however immediately issue an RMA for a refund as we did not have any more on hand to exchange- your were going to reorder another one when we got more in- which we did a week later. This is why you did not get an exchange. No other reason.

You could have ordered another one even the next day but never did- so please do not insinuate that I refused to exchange it- I only asked that you return it for a refund and purchase another one when they appeared back in stock on the website.

Your RMA was issued on 5/22 - in our system an RMA will stay activated for 2 weeks so that Atlanta can check it in properly and advise me so I can issue the refund. We have never had an RMA expire like this before- most folks are diligent and send an item back promptly.

In your case you only mailed the knife on 6/9 and it arrived after the RMA expired and we only located it when you reminded me and sent a tracking number- this was around around mid June.

Your reason for hanging on to it for 19 days after the RMA was that "you kept forgetting to take it to work".

We have been in this for a long time and handle the occasional return very professionally- in your case, as a prolific and seasoned buyer of quality knives, returning the item promptly was something that you could have taken as bit more seriously.

Neil Ostroff / TNK
Hollywood, FL
Peachtree City, GA

Lone_Wolfe said:
Fair warning that when I tried to exchange my small, Neil got in a snit about it. He'd previously promised to send me some pics of some other knives he had, admitted he forgot, and refused to send them at all after I contacted him about the ugly pattern of my small. He refused an exchange, so I had to return for a refund. Now he doesn't answer my emails at all. So be forewarned.

BTW, the pattern on my large isn't great, but it's pretty good.


This pic of the small I had isn't a good one, but you can see the swirl near the center that put me off.

TNK_Flag-1_zpscwxlgmu4.jpg
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Personally, if you buy on-line any knife with a pattern or etching on the blade you really cannot be too picky. Particularly since you knowingly bought it w/o even seeing a picture of the actual damascus or pattern-welded blade you will be getting. To me that's asking for a let down, particularly if you have a distinct ideas about what is "right or wrong". Your lucky TNK will refund or replace, some on-line purveyors, even supporters of this site, do not have that level of service.

If you are picky, like me, do what I do, wait until your travels bring you to a brick and mortar store and then you can get what fits your concept of perfect.

The damsacus on this knife reflects the human element of the art form, some would not consider it a defect at all, but a sign of being hand-made. Kind of like a mole on a pretty girl.
 
brownshoe said:
Personally, if you buy on-line any knife with a pattern or etching on the blade you really cannot be too picky. Particularly since you knowingly bought it w/o even seeing a picture of the actual damascus or pattern-welded blade you will be getting. To me that's asking for a let down, particularly if you have a distinct ideas about what is "right or wrong". Your lucky TNK will refund or replace, some on-line purveyors, even supporters of this site, do not have that level of service.

If you are picky, like me, do what I do, wait until your travels bring you to a brick and mortar store and then you can get what fits your concept of perfect.

The damsacus on this knife reflects the human element of the art form, some would not consider it a defect at all, but a sign of being hand-made. Kind of like a mole on a pretty girl.
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There's quite a difference between a beauty mark and a giant hairy mole occupying an otherwise pretty face, but the analogy is at least semi accurate.
 
Neil Ostroff said:
Good morning,

First, you have every right to return the knife for a refund or an exchange- and I do clearly remember your communication asking for photos of the blades we have on hand but as I explained since we moved to Florida I don't have daily access to the inventory in our Atlanta distribution center.

Also, I am working all day today so feel free to call me on the toll free number on the website.

Sorry that you were disappointed - as others have said Damascus blades are not only variable based on the etching and welding process but more importantly a matter of personal taste.

I will resolve this for you to your satisfaction.

Neil @ TNK
Click to expand...

Hey Neil, first of all, thank you for taking the time to reply to this thread, it speaks volumes about your commitment to keep customers happy. As I have mention on my other comments, Im a bit of an OCD case and that's why I decided to open this thread, I wanted to make sure I wasn't exaggerating or being extra picky, it wasn't my intention (or the other member's Im pretty sure) to turn it into a personal attack agains your company, just wanted to make that clear.
I will try to contact you to see if it is possible to exchange the knife since I wasn't planning on just getting a refund.
Thanks again
Best regards
Jair
 
Neil Ostroff said:
*snip* and I do clearly remember your communication asking for photos of the blades we have on hand but as I explained since we moved to Florida I don't have daily access to the inventory in our Atlanta distribution center.*snip*
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Neil,
Is you being in FL and your knives being in Atlanta going to be a permanent thing ?
Just wondering, and hoping there may be a future ATL storefront. That would be great :)
I realize that's highly doubtful, but one can hope :p
 
As someone who has a raindrop damascus on the way, I wish I hadn't seen this thread :p Very cool to see the company respond though. I love how dedicated places like TNK are to keeping their customers happy. :thumbup:
 
Neil Ostroff said:
...

To set the record straight- lets back up a bit. You wanted to return the knife due to not liking the Damascus- no dealer is overjoyed to get a return and in this case we were out of these and had many waiting for more - I did however immediately issue an RMA for a refund as we did not have any more on hand to exchange- your were going to reorder another one when we got more in- which we did a week later. This is why you did not get an exchange. No other reason.

You could have ordered another one even the next day but never did- so please do not insinuate that I refused to exchange it- I only asked that you return it for a refund and purchase another one when they appeared back in stock on the website.

Your RMA was issued on 5/22 - in our system an RMA will stay activated for 2 weeks so that Atlanta can check it in properly and advise me so I can issue the refund. We have never had an RMA expire like this before- most folks are diligent and send an item back promptly.

In your case you only mailed the knife on 6/9 and it arrived after the RMA expired and we only located it when you reminded me and sent a tracking number- this was around around mid June.

Your reason for hanging on to it for 19 days after the RMA was that "you kept forgetting to take it to work".

We have been in this for a long time and handle the occasional return very professionally- in your case, as a prolific and seasoned buyer of quality knives, returning the item promptly was something that you could have taken as bit more seriously.

Neil Ostroff / TNK
Hollywood, FL
Peachtree City, GA
Click to expand...

It's always good to get both sides of every story and it sounds like you have went out of your way to satisfy your customers. It is a shame that the first side of the story had to be so fictitious and tried to shine a bad light on you. Hopefully you received an apology.
I will be contacting you tomorrow to inquire about ordering a knife from you. You've always treated me fairly. Thank you!
 
Neil Ostroff said:
...

To set the record straight- lets back up a bit. You wanted to return the knife due to not liking the Damascus- no dealer is overjoyed to get a return and in this case we were out of these and had many waiting for more - I did however immediately issue an RMA for a refund as we did not have any more on hand to exchange- your were going to reorder another one when we got more in- which we did a week later. This is why you did not get an exchange. No other reason.

You could have ordered another one even the next day but never did- so please do not insinuate that I refused to exchange it- I only asked that you return it for a refund and purchase another one when they appeared back in stock on the website.

Your RMA was issued on 5/22 - in our system an RMA will stay activated for 2 weeks so that Atlanta can check it in properly and advise me so I can issue the refund. We have never had an RMA expire like this before- most folks are diligent and send an item back promptly.

In your case you only mailed the knife on 6/9 and it arrived after the RMA expired and we only located it when you reminded me and sent a tracking number- this was around around mid June.

Your reason for hanging on to it for 19 days after the RMA was that "you kept forgetting to take it to work".

We have been in this for a long time and handle the occasional return very professionally- in your case, as a prolific and seasoned buyer of quality knives, returning the item promptly was something that you could have taken as bit more seriously.

Neil Ostroff / TNK
Hollywood, FL
Peachtree City, GA
Click to expand...

When I asked about an exchange you said "The ones in Atlanta are always packed on a pallet slated for to the Blade Show." and "They are a processor and won’t go through the stock.", nothing about being OOS. They were also showing as available on your website at the time. Not that the reason matters that much, I imagine you had a lot on your mind. As did I when I stuck your knife in a drawer and kept forgetting to take in to work on the one day a week I could get to the post office at the time. I'll admit I'd also almost talked myself out of returning it, but the lack of the promised pics of the other knives bothers me a bit. The way I see it is that we were both a bit forgetful here, and I certainly didn't mean you any harm. However, had the situation been reversed, I'd show you the courtesy of answering your emails. ;)
 
magicblade said:
I think it looks better than mine in the sense of the small inperfections being more subtle and blending better over all.
Click to expand...

I do think this one looks good, I got lucky with it.

I think I remember seeing a thread, but can't remember where ( a theme with me?), about the damascus pattern being looser these days. I noticed it on some ladders I've seen recently, and even comparing this one to my older spiro Sebenza you can see a difference. I wonder of all the Devin Thomas is being done this way, or if this is something temporary or just for CRK.

DamascusLarges_zpszffrygt8.jpg
 
Dhbranum said:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...mascus-has-changed-so-much?highlight=Raindrop

Quote Originally Posted by kidcongo View Post
In the Shot Show YouTube interview with Anne Reeve she said they have returned to the tighter pattern in the raindrop and shows an example. Call me strange, but I prefer the random raindrop they were using recently to the very uniform one you describe.
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That's it, thank you. It's mostly about the more drastic change of the Raindrop, but in post Abominable mentions the other patterns. I compared mine and saw that he's right. It seems to affect the Spiro more adversely than others to me. I like the new raindrop pattern, but see it as a new pattern altogether. In my mind, I call it Waves On the Beach. I have mixed feelings about CRK changing back so fast, I'd just decided to order a blade for my current EDC. Wish they'd keep both patterns.
 
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