Fehrman and Busse

[thombrogan]

barrabas74,

Skill, geometry, hardness, torsional strength, and a whole lot of other factors can enter the scene before wear resistance ever matters. A lot of kitchen knives with edges made of 'white paper' steel would be look like rubbish on a CATRA testing machine, but they're used for hours on end while keeping levels of sharpness that humble a lot of us as knifeknuts (unless you're Jeff Clark or you're using 'blue paper' steel). Lower-carbon high-carbon stainless steels (here we go with the Buck Edge2K references again) can have greater wear-resistance-based edge retention when compared to higher-carbon high-carbon stainless steels with thicker edges (pwning two myths at once).

But getting back on topic,

Fehrman's knives are gorgeous and most everyone who owns one is happy to own one. And most who don't own one, but like rugged outdoors entertainment knives would be happy to own one, too.

 

[barrabas74]

barrabas74,

Skill, geometry, hardness, torsional strength, and a whole lot of other factors can enter the scene before wear resistance ever matters. A lot of kitchen knives with edges made of 'white paper' steel would be look like rubbish on a CATRA testing machine, but they're used for hours on end while keeping levels of sharpness that humble a lot of us as knifeknuts (unless you're Jeff Clark or you're using 'blue paper' steel). Lower-carbon high-carbon stainless steels (here we go with the Buck Edge2K references again) can have greater wear-resistance-based edge retention when compared to higher-carbon high-carbon stainless steels with thicker edges (pwning two myths at once).

But getting back on topic,

Fehrman's knives are gorgeous and most everyone who owns one is happy to own one. And most who don't own one, but like rugged outdoors entertainment knives would be happy to own one, too.

I know all about that, I dont mean to be getting testy here but I was just stating where allankidd got his facts from. I just did not particulary find cliffs post helpful to anyone just stating that Allankids statement was false. I also didnt ask why it was false, but other people on here who may not be familiar with the information you just gave out so by just stating "That is false" no one knows WHY even if you and I do many others do not. If you read my comment on the bottom of the second post "After reading the site I can understand where allankidd may have gotten his information". I agree there is a WHOLE lot more than just the steel, . However I left it with what I said because Cliff did just leave people hanging with his comments. No offense to Cliff and he def knows what he's talking about.

Sorry early in the morning, and it seemed like you presumed me ignorant. Which is obviously not the case, just making my point.

 

[thombrogan]

Sorry early in the morning, and it seemed like you presumed me ignorant. Which is obviously not the case, just making my point.

I'm still punchy, so no worries here. Don't know anyone with this hobby who isn't still learning and who doesn't have work, life, and other hobbies which are more important than learning this mostly meaningless points. So I don't know what you know or don't know. Heck, I don't even know if most of what I 'know' is correct.

 

[sodak]

I know.....

 

[barrabas74]

I'm still punchy, so no worries here. Don't know anyone with this hobby who isn't still learning and who doesn't have work, life, and other hobbies which are more important than learning this mostly meaningless points. So I don't know what you know or don't know. Heck, I don't even know if most of what I 'know' is correct.

Yeah I am learning everday. So back on track I am more of a Busse guy. I like Ferhmans but after owning many Busses I guess I caught the INFI bug and I do use them. They are all users to me and have done very well as far as edge retention and ease of sharpening. I would like to try a 9inch Ferhman though.

 

[allankidd]

Don't ask the people selling you a product to evalute it. That statement isn't even close to true, S7 is in fact brittle compared to some steels.

Well, I have never heard any say S7 is brittle. However, we are not talking about brittleness. We are talking about shock resistance and S7 is the most shock resistant of all of the shock resistant steels (at least according to: Heat Treatment, Selection and Applications of TOOL STEELS by Bill Bryson). Page 129 shows S7 literally off the chart. The next closest is S1 followed by S5. Most other tool steels are a fraction of S7. The criteria is Joules (energy) per Charpy shock impact test. S7 is past 325, where the chart ends and D2 about 10, for example. A2 is about 25, etc.

I would be interested to know what steels make S7 brittle by comparison.

Best regards,
Allan

 

[allankidd]

That is completely false.

-Cliff[/QUOTE]

Sir, can you elaborate. I am looking at Crucible's CPM 3V Data Sheet. I stand by my statement. Are you saying Crucible is wrong. Or am I incorrectly interpreting their data sheet? The comparagraph shows S7 as the toughest, but least wear resistant of the tool steels being compared. The link is:
http://www.crucibleservice.com/datash/ds3Vv5b.pdf?CFID=1090655&CFTOKEN=54779323
I hope that link works. If not it can be found at Crusteel.co.uk under Knife Steels.

I respect your opinion. I am sure you know more about tool steels than I do. However, I do know a little. We use various tool steels to make mold and mold inserts where I work.

 

[allankidd]

I think allankid may have gotten his specs from crucible's website for wear resistance, Which shows S7 being at the bottom of the list of Tool Steels etc such as A2, A9, 3V, M2 etc. On the same page it also shows S7 being at the top of the list(with other said tool steels) for Impact resistance.

http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/general/generalpart1.html

http://www.crucibleservice.com/eselector/prodbyapp/tooldie/cpm3vt.html

After reading the site I can understand where allankidd may have gotten his information.

Barrabas,

Thank you. I couldn't have said it better myself, although I tried

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Are you saying Crucible is wrong. Or am I incorrectly interpreting their data sheet? The comparagraph shows S7 as the toughest, but least wear resistant of the tool steels being compared.

There are other steels. Wear resistance also not strongly correlated to edge holding for a lot of knife uses. In some knives it in fact makes the edge retenion worse. In larger knives specifically this is the case. S7 would have far better edge retention in a bolo than 10V for example.

Well, I have never heard any say S7 is brittle.

Brittleness is the opposite of toughness. Some of the hot work steels are significantly tougher than S7. S7 can in fact be considered to be a high hardness, hot work steel. The lower carbon hot work steels which tend to max out in the low to mid fifties are much tougher and are not even measured by the same type of impact tests. S7 is however a very tough steel, likely tougher than what is needed for most (maybe all) knives.

In regards to crucibles reports, they are mostly meaningless because they don't tell you how the steels were heat treated, they are only points and not temper responces and they only give one test. There are many ways to test for toughness and you have to consider them all to get a meaningful result. Carpenter does a much better job in thier reference book as they give full temper responces and multiple test types. They are also very clear that most of the impact tests are in fact just estimates for the high hardness steels.

-Cliff

 

[Walking Man]

I haven't looked, but I'd be willing to bet that Fehrman doesn't have the guarantee that Busses do!
....
Okay, I looked. It looks about the same. In fact, it looks TOO close to the same wording. Buy the original, buy the better, buy the Busse! Stain resistant too!

 

[Doug C]

Fehrman Knives are Guaranteed not to fail...for life. (If you unintentionally damage your knife,we will recondition or replace it.)

Doug

 

[thombrogan]

Walking Man,

If a Fehrman floats someone's boat better than a Busse, buying Busse would be bonkers. If a Busse bangs you bell, buy Busse. Or as we say on Bladeforums: Better buy both!

 

[Blop]

Sorry, I could not get the Swamp Rat or the Scrap Yard, but here is a comparison between the Fehrman First Strike, Busse Hell Razor, Trident Oberland 03, and an Extrema Ratio. Of the four, the Hell Razor feels the lightest and the Fehrman feels the stoutest:

I would have no problem depending on the Fehrman to do what a large knife is supposed to be able to do.

FWIW, Ciao
Ron

Seems to me, that the Fehrmann has the most uncomfort handle. How does it work in reality?

What is the most comfort handle of these couple and what is the worst?

Consider chopping, long time working, changing grip posiotions.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Seems to me, that the Fehrmann has the most uncomfort handle. How does it work in reality?

Just like you would think, poorly.

-Cliff

 

[barrabas74]

I am not a fan of the reg Busse handes myself for larger blades, but once you throw the mag handles on there it all changes and it feels much better in my hand and makes for easier use. Alot about handles depends on how your hands are built(duh)

 

[muzzleup]

Seems to me, that the Fehrmann has the most uncomfort handle. How does it work in reality?

What is the most comfort handle of these couple and what is the worst?

Consider chopping, long time working, changing grip posiotions.

Most comfortable is the Trident, then the Fehrman, then the Busse and last the Extrema Ratio. Actually the Fehrman is very close to the comfort of the Trident and it is also has a rubber liner between the scales to absorb shock.

Ciao
Ron

 

[Evolute]

Ron,

I've been curious about that rubber liner's ability to absorb shock. It seems like the rubber is in the the wrong areas, and too thin, to absorb shock.

Is the rubber liner effective? If yes, is there any way you can quantify how much difference it makes?

Thanks.

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

what sort of work did you do with the four knives to compare handle comfort?

 

[muzzleup]

Ron,

I've been curious about that rubber liner's ability to absorb shock. It seems like the rubber is in the the wrong areas, and too thin, to absorb shock.

Is the rubber liner effective? If yes, is there any way you can quantify how much difference it makes?

Thanks.

Evolute,
How do I "quantify" a feeling that you can understand? It is just something you have to be able to feel for yourself. Vibration does not seem to flow from the blade at contact and move into your hand like some other knife handles. Take the plunge and order a Fehrman and I am betting that if you don't like it they will gladly take it back and refund you your money....give them a call, and speak to Eric, they are great people to do business with.

Ciao
Ron

 

[Evolute]

Originally posted by muzzleup

How do I "quantify" a feeling that you can understand? It is just something you have to be able to feel for yourself.

There are lots of ways. It's easy. For example, I can tell you that with my (non shock absorbing) Busse Battle Mistress, my hand starts to hurt from the pounding in about five to ten minutes of chopping, whereas with my ("rubber" handled and shock absorbing) Swamp Rat Battle Rat, my hand doesn't start to hurt for half an hour or so of chopping. Or I can tell you that, with my ("rubber" handled) Swamp Rat Paul's Ratchet, I can chop more than twice as long without exhaustion, compared to my (micarta and steel handled) Busse Paul's Hatchet, because of the Ratchet's shock absorption. All I'm asking for is some ball park idea of what kind of difference you find the rubber liners make.

In any case, I'll take this as a "Yes", that you do find the rubber liners effective for shock absorption. Good to know. Thanks.