fehrman shadow scout vs. dozier pro guide

[Gossman Knives]

Item 1:
Usual rants? Please provide an example. I have nothing but respect for MS Kevin Cashen and I highly value his opinion. For you to write that I would "go on usual rants about him being delusional and so forth" is wrong. I have never and will never do this. You need to apologize for misrepresenting me to Kevin.

Why didn't you answer the question about the tests?

Have you attempted the ABS journeyman tests with a knife?

Have you ever chopped through a 2x4?

Have you ever sliced through a 1" free hanging rope within 12" of the end with the same knife?

Have you ever take the same knife and bent it 90º without breaking the knife?


Item 2:
You missed the point again. A knife that will successfully pass all three tests demonstrates successful heat treat.


Item 3:
The 2x4 chop is a test of durability of a hidden tang if the knife is built with a hidden tang.


Item 4:
You missed the point again. The rope cutting as part of a series of tests. It is not a test by itself.


Item 5:
You missed the point again. Chop the 2x4 and then shave, remember? Have you done this yourself with a Rambo knife? On what basis do you make this claim?


Item 6:
Please provide examples of "lots" of these knives.


Item 7:
Is this thread "filled with personal rants and back issues"?


Item 8:
Just because a steel is forged does not mean it is differentially hardened. I'm surprised you didn't know this. I know of one knifemaker differentially hardening stainless steel. You wrote "people" which is plural of person. Please names the other knifemakers differentially hardening stainless steel.


Cliff,
Several times in your response you did not answer the question or deflected to a different subject. Please carefully read what has been written and respond the the comments and questions. If you respond the same way again I have to believe that you are purposefully and willfully obfuscating your answers.

Chuck,
get ready for a long and drawen out thread if you want him to answer your questions. He's very good at twisting your statements and trying to make you out to be a fool. He has BSed people for so long here at BF, that they actually believe him. I don't have time to waste feeding a troll. I have knives to make.
Scott

 

[Cliff Stamp]

IFor you to write that I would "go on usual rants about him being delusional and so forth" is wrong.

That was the point, I knew there would be a huge disparity in your behavior .

Why didn't you answer the question about the tests?

No I have not made a knife, that was part of the nonsense I was referring to, yes I have done bends, chopped wood and cut rope with lots of knives of differing abilities.

I personally don't see any value at all in the 90 degree bend test because it ignores the load applied. I would rather a spring spine which would be much stronger and more resilent.

None of the fisherman I know actually make boats, by your logic does that mean they can't evaluate them? How about chef's / cooks and ovens, hunters and rifles, or a doctor and medical instruments?

A knife that will successfully pass all three tests ...

"A bar of 1018 mild steel, if properly prepared, can cut rope, two 2X4's (and still shave) and easily bend to 90 degrees"

This doesn't make you rethink your arguement?

The 2x4 chop is a test of durability of a hidden tang if the knife is built with a hidden tang.

No it isn't, for many reasons mainly because the number of chops are not high enough, as noted even really cheap knives won't fall apart that fast. It often takes much longer to see handle failures, days or even weeks of heavy use.

The rope cutting as part of a series of tests. It is not a test by itself.

It is a test by itself, specifically designed to test sharpness and cutting ability, and has no relevance in a discussion about tang durability. Neither do the other tests as noted.

Please provide examples of "lots" of these knives.

Many tactical knives would fail the 90 degree bend test as they are not spine annealed and/or don't have heavy distal tapers. They might also fail the rope cutting test due to an edge aimed towards higher impacts. It is ridiculus to then claim they are not meant for "heavy use", it is precisely because they are aimed for heavy use that they fail those tests. As for knives that pass it, again see the above.

Just because a steel is forged does not mean it is differentially hardened.

It is harder to forge it, which is why I mentioned it. You can differentially harden a stainless steel by edge quenching it in oil and thus the spine will air cool while the edge rapidly oil cools. This of course won't give the same level of hardness disparity as in true oil hardening steels, but there are other methods such as full harden and then keep the edge cooled while drawing the temper on the spine. Most don't do it is because if you are going to do it then there are far easier steels to do so with or they don't need to because the steel doesn't need it for the required toughness. However there is nothing to stop a maker from doing it if they wanted to. Ask around, it should not be hard to find someone who is willing to do it, most will wonder why and tell you as noted there are more suitable steels. Not to mention the whole issue can be sidestepped if you laminate stainless steels which give you the same flexiblity and will allow you to do the large bends if you want.

-Cliff

 

[SteelDriver]

I had a dozier slim outdoorsman that cut very well, I would have liked it to be thinner though... has anyone used a shadow scout in the field?

I haven't used the Shadow Scout in the field, though mine should be arriving this week . I know that Brendan, Steelhed, and OwenM have them; Owen was very helpful in answering questions and sending me pics when I was deciding to order it. You can also search for Peace Maker reviews, since the SS is simply a stretched-out PM (2" longer blade, ~1 oz. heavier).
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=315417&highlight=fehrman+shadow+scout

 

[Alpha Knife Supply]

Copied for content.

Quote:

IFor you to write that I would "go on usual rants about him being delusional and so forth" is wrong.

That was the point, I knew there would be a huge disparity in your behavior .

Why didn't you answer the question about the tests?

No I have not made a knife, that was part of the nonsense I was referring to, yes I have done bends, chopped wood and cut rope with lots of knives of differing abilities.

I personally don't see any value at all in the 90 degree bend test because it ignores the load applied. I would rather a spring spine which would be much stronger and more resilent.

None of the fisherman I know actually make boats, by your logic does that mean they can't evaluate them? How about chef's / cooks and ovens, hunters and rifles, or a doctor and medical instruments?

A knife that will successfully pass all three tests ...

"A bar of 1018 mild steel, if properly prepared, can cut rope, two 2X4's (and still shave) and easily bend to 90 degrees"

This doesn't make you rethink your arguement?

The 2x4 chop is a test of durability of a hidden tang if the knife is built with a hidden tang.

No it isn't, for many reasons mainly because the number of chops are not high enough, as noted even really cheap knives won't fall apart that fast. It often takes much longer to see handle failures, days or even weeks of heavy use.

The rope cutting as part of a series of tests. It is not a test by itself.

It is a test by itself, specifically designed to test sharpness and cutting ability, and has no relevance in a discussion about tang durability. Neither do the other tests as noted.

Please provide examples of "lots" of these knives.

Many tactical knives would fail the 90 degree bend test as they are not spine annealed and/or don't have heavy distal tapers. They might also fail the rope cutting test due to an edge aimed towards higher impacts. It is ridiculus to then claim they are not meant for "heavy use", it is precisely because they are aimed for heavy use that they fail those tests. As for knives that pass it, again see the above.

Just because a steel is forged does not mean it is differentially hardened.

It is harder to forge it, which is why I mentioned it. You can differentially harden a stainless steel by edge quenching it in oil and thus the spine will air cool while the edge rapidly oil cools. This of course won't give the same level of hardness disparity as in true oil hardening steels, but there are other methods such as full harden and then keep the edge cooled while drawing the temper on the spine. Most don't do it is because if you are going to do it then there are far easier steels to do so with or they don't need to because the steel doesn't need it for the required toughness. However there is nothing to stop a maker from doing it if they wanted to. Ask around, it should not be hard to find someone who is willing to do it, most will wonder why and tell you as noted there are more suitable steels. Not to mention the whole issue can be sidestepped if you laminate stainless steels which give you the same flexiblity and will allow you to do the large bends if you want.

-Cliff

 

[bladefan]

thanks steeldriver, looking forward to your impressions when you get yours!!

 

[tidefan]

I just received my pro guide from Bob Dozier and it's more that enough knife for what a knife should be. As always, the grinds and finish are second to none, the edge is wicked sharp, and the sheath is the best I've seen. If you break this knife, you have to be doing something a knife was not meant to do and you should'nt be allowed to play with sharp pointy things any more. The Fehrman shadow scout looks to be an awesome knife as well, I just really like Dozier's stuff. Hope that helps a little...Jim

 

[Cliff Stamp]

If you break this knife, you have to be doing something a knife was not meant to do ...

There are lots of knives meant to do things would are beyond the scope of what Dozier does, he has his designs based on what he wants a knife to do, there are other viewpoints. But personally I would go less not more with a D2 blade similar to what knifetester described. I like D2 in really thin blades, <1/8" thick with really thin edges and deep hollow grinds.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

I think most of Bob Dozier's knives are thin, like 1/8 stock and an occassional 3/16. Swamp Rat D2 knives were the same as I recall and they were the 'light duty' line up as you once pointed out Cliff. He made the Pro Guide the thickness he did to make it a bit tougher and stronger over a thinner blade stock.

Dozier's philosphy is very simple really. A knife should cut and cut for a long time. His products do that and do it well.


Chuck. You may as well forget it with your questions. Unless you like reading a book's worth of material and a rant on and on until the original thread gets derailed into something completely off topic that is. Nice try though.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I think most of Bob Dozier's knives are thin, like 1/8 stock and an occassional 3/16.

Yes, and they cut very well compared to many if not most knives on the market, I was noting my preference for that steel which would be similar in design to Dozier as I noted in the above that his type of grind (thin edge / dep hollow) is optimal for D2, I would personally just take it further.

I would use thinner stock and a deeper grind leaving the blade ~0.015" at 1/4" back from the edge. I would not recommend this for general production because it would be too heavily biased towards cutting ability and edge retention at the cost of a narrow scope of work.

There is an arguement to be made for a similar design with a high flat grind, leaving something like the Deerhunter which knifetester references. I have blades like that from many great makers, they are very solid designs as well and are slightly more versatile in use and will tolerate lateral stresses the extreme hollow grinds will not.

It is all just about picking the blade which has the properties that you want, pretty much every blade is optimal for someone.

Swamp Rat D2 knives were the same as I recall and they were the 'light duty' line up ...

Yes but what they are being compared to is of critical importance which is one of the toughest line of knives on the market.

-Cliff

 

[W.T. Beck]

Dozier is focused more on high cutting ability and edge retention while Fehrman is more on toughness.

I thought the S3V steel used by Fehrman is supposed to equal or exceed D2 in edge retention, as well as being very tough. Is this not the case?

 

[Ebbtide]

If you break this knife, you have to be doing something a knife was not meant to do and you should'nt be allowed to play with sharp pointy things any more... I just really like Dozier's stuff. Jim

Well said!


(and thank you for being a fan )

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I thought the S3V steel used by Fehrman is supposed to equal or exceed D2 in edge retention, as well as being very tough.

Crucible prmotes 3V as having far greater wear resistance than D2 while still having greater toughness even at a higher hardness :

http://www.crucibleservice.com/datash/ds3Vv5b.pdf?CFID=63079&CFTOKEN=62141742

So it looks like it completely outperforms D2 (outside of corrosion resistance which neither steel does well, but D2 pits worse).

However few knifemakers support the greater edge retention in light use, Mel Sorg compared it to D2 and 5160 and found it a good in between blade, but not superior to either of those individually.

Edge retention doesn't equal wear resistance, and typically D2 is run harder than 3V in knives and ground with thinner and more acute edges so those blades are focused more on cutting ability and edge retention.

It is often more about how they are ground and hardened more so than the the actual properties of the steel themselves. A lot depends on how the maker grinds and where they run the heat treatment.

It would be interesting to see a 3V blade ground to a similar profile at 62 HRC, which crucible claims would still be twice as tough as D2 at 60 HRC and have twice the wear resistance.

I don't think anyone actually does that though, probably because if you were doing to run it that way there are steels which would be better like 10V.

-Cliff

 

[W.T. Beck]

Yes, I had seen a Crucible chart showing high wear resistance for S3V, which is why I asked that question.

Thanks for the explaination!

 

[STR]

Cliff.

It probably isn't worth a quarrel about the definition of "hard use" and your blatant claim (in not so many words)that you know more than any other expert. I don't understand the reason for your constant need to attempt to make otherwise great posts like Chuck's less valid by picking them apart the way you do.

Whatever makes you think you know more than the folks that came up with the journeyman testing methods eludes me. It isn't the end all of great tests for sure but come on. I don't know why Chuck's mention of the journeyman testing methods are so concerning to you. Don't you do the same thing? So, are these tests only valid when Cliff Stamp does them and bogus when anyone else does? OH wait! Nick didn't break the blade. Sorry. My bad.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

[ABS tests]

Don't you do the same thing?

I do similar things, but not to evaluate handle / tang durability, and I would not argue that it is hard use. It isn't simply about what you do, but what you conclude from it. The tests are used for other reasons as noted by the ABS themselves and well suit the goals they are designed to achieve.

-Cliff

 

[knifetester]

I have lots of knives which would not pass these tests for various reasons and I would call them hard use, and I have knives that would pass them and I would not call them hard use.

This interested me, so I follwoed the link and here are the tests:

1. ROPE CUTTING: THE PURPOSE OF THIS TEST IS TO TEST THE EDGE GEOMETRY AND SHARPNESS.
Applicant is responsible for supplying the test rope and ensuring that it is a minimum of one (1) inch in diameter. If the applicant brings a larger rope, the applicant will be judged using the same criteria as though the rope was one inch in diameter. The rope is to be hung in a safe manner, so that the end of the rope to be cut hangs loose without touching the floor or any other object. As a safety precaution, the rope is not to be hand held by another person during the rope-cutting test. The hanging end of the rope is to be marked with tape or a marker to clearly indicate the area that is to be cut. The cut must be approximately six (6) inches from the end of the free hanging rope. A minimum of one (1) cut must be made.

The applicant is to aim at the mark with a two (2) inch margin of high or low being acceptable. The applicant must sever the rope in two with one stroke. If the applicant fails on the first attempt, the Master Smith will allow two more attempts. However, if the Master Smith believes that the failure to sever the rope is due to the lack of skill or strength of the applicant, the Master Smith may attempt the rope cutting with the test knife. This is a test of the applicant s ability to make a knife, not to cut with it. If neither the applicant nor the Master Smith successfully cuts the rope, the applicant fails.

2. WOOD CHOPPING: THE PURPOSE OF THIS TEST IS TO DEMONSTRATE EDGE TOUGHNESS.
The chopping test is to be conducted with 2x4 construction grade wood stud of the applicant s choice. The 2x4 may be either hand held or clamped into a vise or other safe devise. A chopping motion (no whittling) is to be used. The 2x4 must be chopped completely through a minimum of two (2) times. The applicant may choose the area of the 2x4 to chop through.

Following the chopping test, the Master Smith will inspect the edge to determine if there is any noticeable damage to the blade. Any nicks, chips, flat spots, rolled edges, or other deformations of the blade will result in failing the test.

3. SHAVING HAIR: THE PURPOSE OF THIS TEST IS TO DEMONSTRATE EDGE RETENTION.
After the Master Smith approves the quality of the edge, the blade will be returned to the applicant. The applicant must then shave hair using the section of the blade that was most frequently used in the cutting and chopping portions of the test. Enough hair must be shaved to demonstrate that the edge remains keen and shaving sharp.

4. BENDING: THE PURPOSE OF THIS TEST IS TO SHOW THAT THE APPLICANT IS ABLE TO HEAT TREAT A KNIFE WITH A SOFT BACK AND A HARD EDGE.
The bending of the blade is the final test. Safety gear should be worn. At the discretion of the applicant or the Master Smith, the edge may be dulled prior to bending.

The Master Smith will mark a line across the width of the blade approximately 1/3 distance from the tip of the blade. The blade will then be inserted into a vise, tip first, such that the blade is placed into the vise up to the mark on the blade. If the vise jaws are rough, smooth metal inserts shall be located on each side of the clamped portion of the blade to protect the test knife.

The blade shall be bent by force applied to the handle. A leverage device such as a pipe may be used as long as it does not pose a safety risk. The use of such a device is at the sole risk of the applicant and at the discretion of the supervising Master Smith.

The applicant will then bend the blade ninety (90)degrees. The supervising Master Smith will signal the applicant when the ninety (90) degree angle has been reached.

The blade is allowed to crack at the edge on bending but not beyond approximately two thirds (2/3rds) the width of the blade. However, if any part of the blade chips or any part of the blade or tang breaks off, the applicant fails. Because of the many variables in the size,

Geometry, and temper line of the blade, the Master Smith using his/her judgment, shall determine if the extent or location of the fracture line is acceptable. The decision of the Master Smith is final.

So, with these tests in mind, I think there are plenty of "non-hard use" knives that could pass these tests.

For example, I would be happy to video tape testing a Gerber Fillet Knife performing these tests without a problem.
Here is a picture of the knife:

The blade is about 10" long (that is a 7" knife with it), under 1/16" thick, less than an inch wide. It is very flexible, as you would imagine a large fillet knife would be. Blade material is M2 covered with chrome.

I have never chopped a single piece of wood with it, but I have no doubt it iwll chop through two 2x4's without issue. It can take impacts off bone without damage (accidental glances).

The MS test allows yout oo choose your won construction grade 2X4. Choosing clear pine would make this an easy enopugh test.

#2: Cutting a pice of 1" rope to check edge quality. This knife has an edge under .010 thick, under 15 degrees per side at a fine ceramic finish. It will push shve free stadning hair. It would be pretty fast in a nspa cut. 1" rope, I have no doubt it will handle taht with ease.

Arm shave: Even with very fine hair, not a problem. M2 offers great edge retention in my experience and none of the test being conducted will chip it, even run this thin. It will shave hair all day.

Flex test: Bend it 90 degrees? Sure, no problem at all. Heck, I will bend it like 270 degrees so the handle is touching the vice. This is a large flexible fillet knife, it will bend like crazy.

This is not a hard use knife at all, in fact I would classify it as a light use knife. I think that is the point Cliff is trying to make.

On the other hand, my Ranger RD9 is a very hard use knife. It will pass the first test (chopping, no problem, make it a cord!), but it does not have the edge geometry (yet, but it will ) to make a single pass through 1" line unless someone much more skilled was weilding it.

I am not strong enough to bend it 90 degrees even if I stood on it, it would take 2 men and a large cheater bar. It would not suprise me if the blade failed if bent to 90 degrees, but good luck getting it there.

So no, the RD9 would proabbly not pass the MS test. But that does not make it any less of a hard use knife, it is over built and durable as hell.


And no, I have never made a knife. . . .

 

[Ebbtide]

The ABS tests are not tests of the knives.
They are tests of the knifemaker's abilities.
They are not the end of the learning road.
Only a milepost achieved.

 

[knifetester]

Yes, I have a great deal of resepct for the ABS smiths. They produce an optimal convex profile, as seen in the works of guys like Caffery, Carter, Kirk and Wheeler among many others.

The ABS tests are not tests of the knives.
They are tests of the knifemaker's abilities.

I am not sure I understand this. Could you explain more?
I do understand that the maker is the one performing the test, i.e. can not bring in a ringer for the wood chop and such. However, it seems that the testing process very much test the knife as a product made by the smith.

What makes the ABS class knives unique is that they are very efficient at certain tasks, they are able to combine cutting ability with durability through profile, steel and heat treat. I really appreciate and respect that.

While a fillet knife could pass the tests, of course it is not as durable, as stiff or have nearly the scope of work that an ABS class knife does.

My example was simply to illustrate the principle that Cliff was argining that some seemed to contend was not accurate, namely this assertion:

I have lots of knives which would not pass these tests for various reasons and I would call them hard use, and I have knives that would pass them and I would not call them hard use.

Counter by Chuck in Item #6:

Please provide examples of "lots" of these knives.

Note that my example is simply an illustration that Cliff's statement was logically correct. Kevin Cashen, himself a AMster Smitth, makes a far stronger and more practicle distinction:

A bar of 1018 mild steel, if properly prepared, can cut rope, two 2X4's (and still shave) and easily bend to 90 degrees, but none of us would think that is all that good and it has nothing to do with testing a smith.

The point is not that ACS Class knives are like fillet knives (far from true) oor that the two knives are comparable (again, not really true outside a limited field of properties), but rather that the testing was not one of "durability". Thus the test did not provide certain insight into the durablity of hidden tang knives. This was, if I am not mistaken, Cliff's point.

Again, I have nothing but the highest respect for the skilled artisans and craftsmen of the ABS.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

... the maker is the one performing the test, i.e. can not bring in a ringer ...

The rope cut doesn't need to be done by them :

"However, if the Master Smith believes that the failure to sever the rope is due to the lack of skill or strength of the applicant, the Master Smith may attempt the rope cutting with the test knife. This is a test of the applicant s ability to make a knife, not to cut with it."

There is also a provision for people with disabilities. In general though there is little mention of either of these being used, I think the majority of applications do the cuts themselves.

And yes, my problem what the arguement that those tests would actually illustrate a strong/durable tang, and set limits on hard use - not as to the quality of the ABS knives, hard use to me is also knife specific.

-Cliff

 

[knifetester]

hard use to me is also knife specific.

Yes, what would be hard use for a Deerhunter would be trivial for an RD9.

Edited to add: Running the fillet knife above through the dishwasher a few times would likely dull it to the point of being non-functinoal, whereas it would not phase a Mora 2000. What is "hard use" for one is trivial to the other.

There is also a provision for people with disabilities.

I applaud this effort.

The rope cut doesn't need to be done by them

Thanks for the clarification, I read that provision, meant to comment on it, then forgot about it. It sucks getting old, but it beats the alternative. . .