fehrman shadow scout vs. dozier pro guide

[Alpha Knife Supply]

All the ABS JS test I've been to and were told about the applicants did not choose the wood. The 2x4 that were provided were selected by the MS to have as many knots as possible. I would like to watch the Gerber M2 fillet knife perform the tests without the edge being affected. Using a fillet knife to chop through 2x4's is like making love in a canoe while going through white water rapids. It may work, but why?

knifetester and Cliff Stamp have misconstrued several things I wrote. I acquiesce their obvious superior prowess.

 

[knifetester]

knifetester and Cliff Stamp have misconstrued several things I wrote.

If I have misconstrued anything you wrote, please correct me. That was not my intent. I am here to learn and share.

I acquiesce their obvious superior prowess

I will be the first to admit that I have a lot to learn about knives, material science, metallurgy, physics, etc. I have never claimed to be superior to anyone, and if that is the message I am sending out, please let me know because that is not want I want.

If there is anything I have written you disagree with on a factual level, feel free to address it. If I am wrong, please show me how and explain it to me.

As for the Gerber, I will be happy to do that for you. I can bend it past 90 degrees with my fingertips, I don't ned a vice. Chopping wood, rope slice, arm shave? No problem. Let me work on borrowing a digi-cam, would you like to host the video on your site, and we can share the reults here?

Would you prefer I email you digital files or snail mail you a video tape? IF I mail a video, can you convert it to digital, mpeg, avi, etc and host it for us?

 

[Ebbtide]

Quote:
The ABS tests are not tests of the knives.
They are tests of the knifemaker's abilities.


I am not sure I understand this. Could you explain more?
I do understand that the maker is the one performing the test, i.e. can not bring in a ringer for the wood chop and such. However, it seems that the testing process very much test the knife as a product made by the smith.

Gee, I don't know how to explain it any further.
Yes the knife has to perform the test, but it is the smith that is being tested.
Its more about the understanding than the product.
With proper understanding, a proper product will follow.

Again, this is a milestone.
Not the end of a journey.

A really poor analogy would be a driver's license.
It shows that you have an understanding of the rules of the road and an elementary knowledge of how to operate a vehicle.
It doesn't mean that you are a good driver.
When you go for your drivers test, they don't record lap times...they make sure you know the essential fundamentals.

 

[STR]

That is actually a very good analogy IMO. It hits home pretty well and basically covers it as well as anything else said on the subject Ebbtide.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

I felt bad the last time I jumped into this thread because I posted after only reading the points mentioned in this other thread : Are The ABS JS Tests "Hard Use"
and my rush to comment may have stepped on toes on both sides that I may not have intended to step on. In fact, I pondered my rashness so much that I started this thread: Relax, they are just knives.
I felt I needed to delve into the concept of why we need be at odds over how a piece of steel may, or may not, bend.

Facts are facts, they really cannot be emotional because they just are, we inject the emotions into them when we confuse opinion with fact, and opinions should get out goat because they are just opinions and mean nothing to anybody but the person who holds them. Getting folks to release their feelings in the face of facts can get a little touchy, however. But if opinions are presented as facts, then we must challenge that until either concrete evidence is presented to establish them as fact, or all concerned recognize them as opinion.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Now enough of the condescending sermon crap, what I really wanted to post about was the ABS “test” and expain my position a little better. There may be some opinion here but I try to base it all on fact. That test simply cannot be a test of knife performance; as such it would be absolutely meaningless. It can be a test of how creative and a smith is in controlling heat. Could we have thought of better tests for even this? Quite honestly – yes! But it is a test of what the smith can do in the same sense that a belt testing in Karate or Tae- Kwon- Do is, I read the previous analogies and I thought if this one. Many practice these martial arts for self defense, yet in the “tests” we hit boards or concrete, we assume awkward and quite vulnerable stances, and predictably perform choreographed moves. How does this have anything to do with fending off a real life attacker? It doesn’t, the next bar fight you are in try going into a front stance and starting your most recently learned form, see how far it gets you.

The ABS tests have no more to do with a real knife use than a karate form or hitting a pine board, has to do with real fighting, but they both test the applicant’s level of understanding of the techniques they have been taught before they can receive their appropriate ranking.

Real testing of blade performance or properties would resemble nothing in the ABS tests, and unfortunately far too many influential people believe they do. Real testing of properties requires standards and quantifiable results, i.e. cold comparable numbers. The human hand must be eliminated as much a possible before real test results can be useful.

Let’s look at the tests-

The rope cut:

It is supposed to show us that the knife has the proper edge geometry; well it can, but… I can guarantee you that if I had a razor sharp knife I could get through one rope, but I have cut beside Jim Crowell on many occasions and I can also guarantee that if I gave him a bar of steel with so much as a corner on it, he could easily sever multiple ropes. What this really tell you about the knife? The rope test is so heavily influenced by the hand holding the knife and technique of cut, that it is rendered entirely useless as an objective test of the blade. If you still doubt this, let me put it this way- you think your knife is better than mine, we will bet $1000 on which one has a better edge with the rope test. Cutting with your knife will be my friend Ned who has never cut a rope before, but has lots of enthusiasm, cutting with my knife will be Jim Crowell. Sound fair? Ready to get your money out?

The 2X4 chop:

I have never provided the 2X4 for my test applicants and I have had everything from pristine, white, knotless spruce, to half of a dusty 2X4 with a nail in one end because it was pulled from dumpster 10 minutes before leaving for my house. Knots wouldn’t concern me at all, since all a material has to do is have a Rockwell hardness slightly greater than knotty wood to penetrate it, the rest is all edge geometry (if the heat treat was anywhere in the ballpark). I have drawn tempers as high a 500F. on 1095 and still cut five 2x4’s and shaved hair, the same blades even chopped up white tail antler without damage. And yes a cold worked piece of 1018 has done it as well.

I had an applicant with an injury to his shoulder that took the most whacks I have ever seen to get through a 2x4, when the blade shaved, I told him that he deserved the prize more than the guys who do it in a dozen blows, because his edge got a serious workout, being in contact with the cutting medium at least ten times more. How can this be standardized or objective?

The Bend:

I am sorry but I need to be blunt- this one is the most worthless of tests for gathering any meaningful data on material properties. First of all it plays games with yield points, elastic limits and ultimate strengths, so it at least needs to address these, but doesn’t. Many think it means something about the teat treatment, but it says a lot more about the blade geometry than anything; as has been pointed out here, a fillet knife would pass with flying colors. If you want a blades failure/yield point to be 90 degrees or greater, grind it thinner, softening the blade only results in allowing it to bend to 90degrees instead of flexing to 90degrees.

How many ft/lbs are pulled on the blade vs., its cross section? Are there any quantifiable numbers generated by this exercise? Why am I so hard on this one? Because I believe that the misinterpretation of this one has done infinitely more damage than the actual bend has done good. This exercise has rewritten our definition of what a knife is, and in a bad way. For thousands of years people made knives to cut things, in the 21st century many are now making knives to bend to 90 degrees, with cutting as a secondary concern. If students in our public schools are failing the tests, and the schools answer is to change the test until they can pass them, instead of working with the students, we are enraged. But we are thrilled when bladesmiths want knives to do something that ground blades can’t, and they start bending blades, but we need to ask what that has to do with knives?

The ABS has been very good to me and nothing here reflects my opinion of that organization, or their tests of the stamp applicants. But those tests are about as useful to real knife applications as a pretty kata is in bar fight.

 

[STR]

The rope test is so heavily influenced by the hand holding the knife

This is a great point that is so obvious but hardly ever mentioned. My analogy that came to mind as I read this are two stock cars or race cars identical side by side and a pro racer in one driver seat and my wife in the other. Another great point in this thread.

in the 21st century many are now making knives to bend to 90 degrees, with cutting as a secondary concern.

Very true. This can also be seen in many knives by otherwise great makers and productions from otherwise great manufacturers where the fit and finish is excellent and all areas are covered so very well but the blade edge and the geometry are all out of whack and not even sharp. I love a lot of companies but some that I will not mention need to work on the final step before the knives leave the shop.

Great post my friend.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...misconstrued several things I wrote.

You argued that the ABS tests demonstrate a knife is capable of hard use and specifically that they illustrate this for hidden tangs. This is very clear from your above postings, you even defended this proposition several times. The ABS tests do not demonstrate either of these for many reasons.

Here is what happened, you proposed the arguement, I opposed it, you defended it with an ad hominem reply. When Cashen interjected that the tests can not be used to draw such a conclusion you were reaching you could not obviously take a similar manner with him.

If an arguement is wrong, it is wrong no matter who says it.

The human hand must be eliminated as much a possible before real test results can be useful.

To determine the materials properties yes, I would suggest a a series of standard blocks heat treated and have them tested to determine the charpy value, tensile and yield points, resilence, ductility, wear / corrosion resistance, etc. . Minimum values could be set based on what the current best smiths can achieve.

However when you are looking at how these hold up in a knife, eliminating the human hand is a very bad idea, well I don't think very bad is a strong enough term. A knife has to be designed with being used by a person which defines such aspects as handle ergonomics and security, vibration as well as the general combination of abilities that promote "good" performance in general.

Lets say for example instead of a person chopping a 2x4 you rig up a simple impact with a press. This sounds really "scientific" and is very accurate and precise at measuring something - but it isn't what you actually want to really measure, and it would allow a knife to succeed while the same blade would shatter/deform if a person actually tried to use it because people can't be so precise and you have to build a knife accordingly.

The difficult question is this - if a maker has a knife which allows him to cut through a 2x4 XXX number of times and have the knife have ZZZ% of the optimal sharpness, which is above the pass point, but when I try it the results are worse and the knife fails, does the maker pass or fail - how do you factor the skill level into the grade? I don't think this is a insurmountable problem however, you would just want to define this as well which takes some work but isn't impossible.

There are a tremendous amount of talented and gifted invididuals in the ABS, many of whom I have talked to and have the pleasure of learning a lot about knives, steels and use as well as simple personal viewpoints on optimal performance. I am confident if even moderate effort was put into the development of such standards that there would be working ones achieved in a very short period of time.

Anyone who wants to share such an opinion can pop over to SwordForums and read the posts in the metals and performance testing sub-forums and you will quickly come to understand the depth of knowledge that is evident.


-Cliff

 

[STR]

Actually this thread got derailed badly. The original request for input was: As posted by Bladefan;

fehrman shadow scout vs. dozier pro guide

I need a good outdoors survival/camp do it all knife...

considering fehrman shadow scout and dozier pro guide.

anyone with one or both of these knives please comment on
your experience with them in the field...

also on the lower end of the price scale , bk7 or bk9...
I have a fisk 11" ovb which I like but I need a full tang knife
for hard use...

thanks for the input...

Now it has been turned upside down by all of us. So, I for one apologize to Bladefan for my contribution to the side show..

It didn't start out to be a thread on MS or journeyman testing. So, can we get back on topic now? Please. Pretty please with sugar on it.
Bladefan. I don't see any reason why the Fisk knife wouldn't suffice for you needs but the other two are great choices also. I have not handled the Fisk or Fehrman but I am familar with Bob Doziers knife and don't think you could go wrong with it.

Bob makes a great knife and stands behind them. For what it was made to do it fits the bill.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

It didn't start out to be a thread on MS or journeyman testing.

No, but i think it was worth it to get Cashen's perspective. As for the subject, the origional post contained a comment about a hard use knife needing a full tang thus discussion on this issue is obviously on-topic. I feel similar for some knives as noted, which is why I do have full tang knives. I have lots of partial tang knives as well as they are fine for lots of uses. By the way, any time Kevin wants to "derail" any thread I start with posts of similar information content, regardless of the topic, I would see it as a positive result. It isn't like if I started a thread about a bowie point or something and R.J. Martin dropped in to make a note about some recent work he had done with sharpening I would get upset. I take information where I can get it. It isn't like you are forced to read posts, use a killfile or just page down. Get a mouse with a scroll ball - it will change your life.

-Cliff

 

[bladefan]

thanks all for your input, while some of it was irrelevant to my question, it was interesting none the less... my concern was having the knife break at the guard where the blade narrows into the tang... I will continue to use the fisk, purchase a fehrman to try out... and will probably end up getting a dozier as well!!

 

[Ebbtide]

That's the spirit.....
One Of Each!