Fellow Officer Looking For A New Blade

I've run across more than a few cops, as customers, in the woodworking shops I've been a part of.
The variety of tools (easily packable tools) I've had most definitely made them reconsider some of their positions.

Given the choice, I'd much rather mess with a 'trained' killer with a big knife than a skilled woodworker with intent.
Many years working on the waterfront with ex-commandos and 'trained' killers left me confident that at close distances I would rarely be intimidated. From afar, they'd off me for sure.
Up close... not so sure. They weren't skilled cutters - sorry, it's the facts. I'm sure there are exceptions.

Maybe your friend should reconsider what constitutes a legitimate and worthwhile tool.
 
Tony8179 said:
I made my suggestions to the OP just like he asked. Why can't I question what his buddy wants the knife for?

No one is acting self righteous. I think guys want to know why a LEO would carry an 8" fixed blade. It seems odd to me. I've never seen a fixed blade strapped to the belt of any officer / state trooper I've ever met or seen. If I did see one with a fixed blade hanging from their belt I would be a bit confused actually. Maybe they just aren't allowed to carry them in NY, NJ, or CT so I've just never seen it and it seems odd to me. A folder in the pocket definitely. A fixed on the hip seems like overkill to me.

As far as my comment on teaching them to draw their firearms faster, it's real simple. If a man stands 15 feet away from you with a knife, he approaches, and cuts you three times in areas where it would be debilitating, all before you've even drawn your sidearm then that is a major problem. With all the equipment an officer already carries on his/her belt I just don't think it's smart to add a big fixed blade to the mix. Especially if the officer already can't draw his weapon fast enough to stop a knife wielding attacker 15 feet away from him.

I don't begrudge anyone owning or using any knife they want, but sometimes I question the reason for wanting to own the knife. Who are you to tell me I can't ask questions? If the guy wants a big honking fixed blade well thats great. I made my suggestions of the Ontario Spec Ops line and the Buck Nighthawk. Fine knives that can be used for a multitude of purposes. I'm just curious as to why and how he would carry it on duty.
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Its not the fact that you said what you did it is the way you said it. Your correct there are many choices, options and potential vulnerabilities due to the amount of items that must be protected by an officer in a potential physical altercation and an 8" knife would add to mass confusion but I think you are jumping to conclusions suggesting that he will carry it on his duty belt.

What this does is drum up a tangental discussion that gets tends to become nasty on how law enforcement should act, what they should carry and what a "typical" law enforcement knife is. Similar to a post on the first page "Typical cops knife, HA HA"

The 15 foot remark you made seemed to me to suggest that "Here we go again another Rambo" If this was not your intention my mistake but I read it that way, as a snide remark.

You can ask all the questions you want and is a basic requirement for threads like this and the suggestions for knives you made are solid but not only you but some others have also thrown in those tongue in cheek remarks that always draw my attention.

Maybe I'm too serious but I've never been crazy about piling on.
 
jeffa said:
Its not the fact that you said what you did it is the way you said it. Your correct there are many choices, options and potential vulnerabilities due to the amount of items that must be protected by an officer in a potential physical altercation and an 8" knife would add to mass confusion but I think you are jumping to conclusions suggesting that he will carry it on his duty belt.

What this does is drum up a tangental discussion that gets tends to become nasty on how law enforcement should act, what they should carry and what a "typical" law enforcement knife is. Similar to a post on the first page "Typical cops knife, HA HA"

The 15 foot remark you made seemed to me to suggest that "Here we go again another Rambo" If this was not your intention my mistake but I read it that way, as a snide remark.

You can ask all the questions you want and is a basic requirement for threads like this and the suggestions for knives you made are solid but not only you but some others have also thrown in those tongue in cheek remarks that always draw my attention.

Maybe I'm too serious but I've never been crazy about piling on.
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The thing is, I don't think anyone was piling on. Sometimes guys want something because they think it's badass or cool. Earlier this year there was a guy asking about Wakis because his buddy "over there" wanted one to carry. A US soldier walking around with a Wakizashi is not a good idea, plain and simple. A lot of guys started telling him to let his buddy know that it would be a terrible mistake to carry a Waki. Not piling, but guys who have been there and guys who have not been there giving their honest opinions about why carrying a Waki would not be a good idea.

As far as the way I made my comment on the Academy teaching their officers on how to draw their sidearm faster, I was dead serious. Part of an officer's job should be to know his firearm. He should know how to handle it safely, draw it, clean it, and keep his firearm in the best condition possible. As an attacker advances it should be instinct to step back and draw your weapon. The officer should be able to do this before the attacker, who is 15 feet away, advances and uses his knife on the officer.

I'll put it this way. Why teach someone how to use a knife in QCC when they aren't already properly trained to draw and use their weapon instinctively? Between a sidearm, a collapsible batton, and pepper spray or a tazer (sometimes), an officer shouldn't have to use a knife in a combat situation. At the very least they should be highly qualified with the equipment they have to carry before they are trained to use something that they want to carry.

Trust me, I'm no Rambo, but I am not uneducated either. I have Law Enforcement in my family and I talk to him about these things. Unfortunately, I feel that in a situation like the one already stated he would not be able to draw and level off his weapon before being attacked. He's never been interested in becoming skilled with his firearm. He feels that just having one on his side gives him the upper hand. I pray that his line of thinking never gets him in trouble.
 
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I've been on the job for 16 yrs, worked in every environ you can think of and a fixed blade that long is going to prove a pain; he'll get rid of it or let it sit in the drawer. The largest I carry is a 5" and it's on the strap of my camel bak. NO WAY, I'd carry even that on my duty belt. If your friend wants a good sized blade, tell him to look at a spyderco Endura or Police.
 
jasonp said:
I've been on the job for 16 yrs, worked in every environ you can think of and a fixed blade that long is going to prove a pain; he'll get rid of it or let it sit in the drawer. The largest I carry is a 5" and it's on the strap of my camel bak. NO WAY, I'd carry even that on my duty belt. If your friend wants a good sized blade, tell him to look at a spyderco Endura or Police.
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To me this seems like the best possible idea. A large folder to carry.
 
Tony8179 said:
Maybe they should teach them how to draw their firearm a bit faster...
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Try it some time. If you get a person who knows what they doing your gonna be on the ground bleeding with out the use of some bodily functions before that gun comes out of the holster trust me force on force teaches you some things and I have seen it done. ( In training)
 
Gear said:
Try it some time. If you get a person who knows what they doing your gonna be on the ground bleeding with out the use of some bodily functions before that gun comes out of the holster trust me force on force teaches you some things and I have seen it done. ( In training)
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I'm sure most LEO's have constant run ins with maniacal, knife wielding, ex Navy Seals who are openly carrying and trained to use their knives in close quarters. :rolleyes:

What I'm taking away from your statement is that unless the LEO is also trained and skilled in hand to hand and can disarm the knife wielder he is doomed anyway.
 
Tony8179 said:
.......

As far as the way I made my comment on the Academy teaching their officers on how to draw their sidearm faster, I was dead serious. Part of an officer's job should be to know his firearm. He should know how to handle it safely, draw it, clean it, and keep his firearm in the best condition possible. As an attacker advances it should be instinct to step back and draw your weapon. The officer should be able to do this before the attacker, who is 15 feet away, advances and uses his knife on the officer.
.....
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You're right Tony, but it isn;t that simple. All persons involved in law enforcement are trained in the proper, and tactical, use of firearms, including the need to draw and get on target quickly. The thing is, all are individuals, and some officers will be faster or slower than others. Probably one of the best academies in law enforcement, the U.S. Border Patrol academy, trains their agents well. When it comes to National shooting teams, you'll find them loaded with BP agents.

The thing about the 15' rule, or 21', or whatever it is, is that a determined man can reach you quicker than we imagine. Here's a little story with a primer: I used to shoot in PPC and IPSC matches. A fast draw, quick target acquisition, fast reflexes, and good sight alignment/trigger control is essential, or you're better off just watching. Nowadays, I just watch ((:D))

Anyway, in 1987, I attended a 3-day Combat Survival School (Caliber Press - nationally famous). The travelling instructor, Gary Klugewics, picked me out of the body of students. I put on their belt and holster (open-topped - no retention!), and a revolver loaded with these cotton-plug cartridges. I was allowed to practice drawing a few times. Klugewics was armed with a rubber knife (no lipstick). He stood about 15' away or so and he said "When you say go, I'm coming at you". I remember that clearly. Here's the point: I got to determine when he would attack. See, that never happens to a police officer. The bad guy says "when".

Anyway, I shot Klugewics up pretty good. I got three rounds off as I was falling backwards onto the floor. My arms were shredded. Shredded. He was still on top of me hacking away at my chest (he couldn;t go for my throat because even the rubber would have been painful)....he was probably dying, right?....but hacking away in the meantime.

It was an eyeopener for me and all my classmates. Whether others believe in the 15' rule, or whatever, matters not to me. I do...and I still draw fast. But people only fall down dead after one round on TV.
 
StretchNM said:
You're right Tony, but it isn;t that simple. All persons involved in law enforcement are trained in the proper, and tactical, use of firearms, including the need to draw and get on target quickly. The thing is, all are individuals, and some officers will be faster or slower than others. Probably one of the best academies in law enforcement, the U.S. Border Patrol academy, trains their agents well. When it comes to National shooting teams, you'll find them loaded with BP agents.

The thing about the 15' rule, or 21', or whatever it is, is that a determined man can reach you quicker than we imagine. Here's a little story with a primer: I used to shoot in PPC and IPSC matches. A fast draw, quick target acquisition, fast reflexes, and good sight alignment/trigger control is essential, or you're better off just watching. Nowadays, I just watch ((:D))

Anyway, in 1987, I attended a 3-day Combat Survival School (Caliber Press - nationally famous). The travelling instructor, Gary Klugewics, picked me out of the body of students. I put on their belt and holster (open-topped - no retention!), and a revolver loaded with these cotton-plug cartridges. I was allowed to practice drawing a few times. Klugewics was armed with a rubber knife (no lipstick). He stood about 15' away or so and he said "When you say go, I'm coming at you". I remember that clearly. Here's the point: I got to determine when he would attack. See, that never happens to a police officer. The bad guy says "when".

Anyway, I shot Klugewics up pretty good. I got three rounds off as I was falling backwards onto the floor. My arms were shredded. Shredded. He was still on top of me hacking away at my chest (he couldn;t go for my throat because even the rubber would have been painful)....he was probably dying, right?....but hacking away in the meantime.

It was an eyeopener for me and all my classmates. Whether others believe in the 15' rule, or whatever, matters not to me. I do...and I still draw fast. But people only fall down dead after one round on TV.
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This is fantastic information. Thank you for commenting. In these demonstrations it is the job of the attacker to keep attacking. In the real world, those three shots you got off may have dropped him or they may have not. The two major factors in the training situation are that the individual being attacked says go and that the attacker is skilled in knife combat.

As I'm thinking about it, while officers on the job may not run into someone with excellent knife combat skills, they may run into a guy with a knife who is tuned up on Meth or PCP. In this situation I can see how an officer can be attacked an cut up severely even if he does get his weapon out and fire a few shots.

What I would really hope is that if an officer shows up to a scene and sees someone wielding a knife that they will already have their weapon drawn before they get within 15 feet.

Of course none of this really has anything to do with the officer himself carrying a 6-8" fixed blade. I may have derailed this thread. Sorry.

Damnit.
 
There's some good, bad, and truthful stuff in this thread :)

There is indeed a 21 foot rule that is emphasized to us during the Academy. As Peace Officers, we're always on the defense - having to react to someone else's bad decisions. The 21 foot rule shows that a determined individual running at you, hysterical, wanting suicide by cop, etc... can and will close in that SMALL distance in a very fast amount of time. Another thing is that people don't keel over and die immediately, that's all Hollywood.

I also agree with my fellow Law Enformcement Officers that he will quickly figure out that the knife will be very uncomfortable (not to mention room on a duty belt is slim to none). I keep a sturdy folder on me at all times - currently an Emerson A-100, recently the Benchmade AFCK series (806D2 and 800S). The only fixed blade my department allows would be the Kabar last ditch, and the blade on that is maybe 2 inches?

If he wants a descent fixed blade at an affordable price in the size range he specified, then perhaps a SOG Sealpup Elite? http://sogknives.com/store/E37T.html

It's inexpensive enough and looks like it has the bases covered on size, blade color, length, serrations, dual guard, and you can obtain different sheaths for them.
 
Tony, there was alot more I could have written: the scenario inspired comment and debate from the class and the instructor. I mean, for one, there wasn;t much room for me to move, except backwards. Also, my weapon would've already been drawn, but the instructor didn;t permit that as that was the point of the lesson. If a guy starts running at you and you don;t see the knife until he starts moving, you're toast. If you do see the knife and do not react (#1 by drawing your weapon, and #2, by verbal command and immediate movement away and toward cover), then you're quite possibly toast.

That was the point of that training scenario. As I said, I am since a believer.

Yea, the big blade thread kindly got a little lost, hehehe.

Now, for the OP (or his police friend), we don;t know that the guy wants to wear this big knife he's seeking on his duty belt. I'm thinking hanging upside down from a tactical vest, or in the trickie, or whereever. Or again........for the off-duty collection.

Here's the thing about those big knives. Another little story, if you can bear it: I don;t wear a uniform - haven't for 14 full years now - but I carry a fixed blade on my belt most every day. Usually it's a Barkie - mini canadian or min--Northstar. It's just for utility. But a couple of years ago, we were doing a search warrant at a large compaound. I'm on a team with one of these "super-tactical guys". He's an ok guy, I'm not making fun, but some of you know these kinds of guys. He's got everything except a real black widow spider hanging from him. He's got this large Kabar. We encounter this door that has a hasp lock on the outside of it, kind of like you might see on an old trailer door - locked form the outside. I'm thinking, now how are we going to get in there? But without ANY hesitation, "super-tac" whips out this Kabar, out of nowhere. He jams it down between hasp and door, from the top, and yanks downward. Snap! We're in! Honestly, I was very impressed.

So, there's a place sometimes for these big knives. But it takes a guy who has one and is willing to use it in order to see their benefit.

I still like the ScrapYard. I don;t know why my mind keeps going to one of their knives.
 
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StretchNM said:
Probably one of the best academies in law enforcement, the U.S. Border Patrol academy, trains their agents well. When it comes to National shooting teams, you'll find them loaded with OLD PATROL BP agents.
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Fixed it for ya :)
 
On duty i would say the largest he should go with in a folder is 4" give or take. Ifhe is on a department that wears the tacticool vest over the uniform then maybe an esee RC 3 but thats about it. Any bigger and one they are going to laugh their ass off at him. Just my .02 from public service and military side.
 
jeffa said:
Why is everyone acting so self rightous ? If the guy wants a knife what do you care what he wants? The OP wants helpful opinions not judgemental.

Who cares what someone else's agency or version of the 21 foot rule is.

DonnyHolland, I think you should ask your friend once again why his agency performed the knife and lipstick training. It was not to train them to be able to do the same to someone else.

Why do any of us need all of the knives we choose wouldn't one or two suffice?

tacmedic909, I'm guessing your agency allows you to carry a shotgun and rifle but you probably don't take them on a non-felony vehcile stop or to FI an individual on the sidewalk. The correct tool under the right circumstances is what you choose. Your coment was out of line.

Lets just practice what we preach and give Twitcyblade some helpful answers.
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:thumbup: not only do i totally agree with you, i also share your taste in cutlery. i too have carried both a Recon Tanto and a Benchmade Nimravus (mine wasn't serrated though).

not all cops are the same, neither are all agencies. i currently carry an ESEE 5 on my duty rig. my Sgt. has no problem with it and i forgot to check with the BF'rs to make sure they didn't :p

ETA - i also keep either a Junglas or a Rodent Waki in the passenger side (up front) of my patrol car :)
 
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