Fighter Stance ~ Horseman vs Roadhouse

Over Kill said:
Myth: You can pull a gun and shoot a knife attacker before he can kill you if he's at least 20 feet away.
Fact: If the knife combatant is wearing a vest and already has the knife quietly drawn, he can kill 95% of even the top gun combat experts. Reason: in closing the distance, halfway there, your option to shoot to the head is gone or diminished. If you got even briefly stuck in clothing in your draw, had to chamber or take a safety off, had to set a trigger (eg. either mentally, or*on a revolver), you'll be dead. If you got a shot to his vest and he took your throat out, you lose. If you are a police officer and not trained in immediate head shots, you die. If your shot does not immediately sever his spine or motor cortex (very unlikely in a fast draw/shoot situation), he is VERY LIKELY NOT to miss your eyes or throat, as a knife is FAR more accurate and certain, in it's range, than a gun. The more highly trained you are with a gun the more danger you're in. First: Mozambique will waste two shots center mass and you'll be dead before you can get to the head shot. Second: "Highly trained" means you're constantly worried about the legal ramifications of shooting someone who is unarmed. If the knife thug screamed "I'm unarmed" and charged you, your external carotid, subclavian, throat or eyes will be severed by the time you decide you can shoot. Worst of all: a gun might tempt you to stand your ground, when the safest option was to get the hell out of there!
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I agree with your myth, in fact recent research has pushed that out even farther. If you think drawing a folding knife even one with a wave in the situation is a better idea, I disagree. I can draw my handgun faster than I can a folding knife.

You loose me when you talk about Mozambique and being worried about shooting someone who is unarmed. You said they were armed with a knife in your original scenario and I have no idea who or what Mozambique is.
 
prw166 said:
I agree with your myth, in fact recent research has pushed that out even farther. If you think drawing a folding knife even one with a wave in the situation is a better idea, I disagree. I can draw my handgun faster than I can a folding knife.

You loose me when you talk about Mozambique and being worried about shooting someone who is unarmed. You said they were armed with a knife in your original scenario and I have no idea who or what Mozambique is.
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Dude I am not talking about 2 combatants standing 20 feet apart, 1 with a knife drawn and the other with a gun and on the count of three going at it. That has a obvious outcome. With the rig i wear i can get a knife out faster than i can blink my eye let alone pull my gun or sling my rifle up so that is a major factor.

Look up mozambique drill aka Failure to stop drill.
 
If you can draw your folding knife faster than you can your gun, you need to either change your rig up or practice drawing your firearm more than your knife. We aim for all upper hydraulics these days, no more two to the chest one to the head. I don't teach the firearms, I just participate in the drills. I have no idea what they are called. I remember the drill, but we have moved on. I am still waiting to hear some of the cqc scenarios where a knife is proven better than a gun. If you mean we are both in close and you decide to pull a knife and I have to react and draw my firearm, then I can see that. Action is faster than reaction.

In response the the original question, I like the Horseman better. I like the blade shape better than the tanto.
 
Between the two, I'd go with the Roadhouse.

The tip is more in line with the user's wrist with the blade being set slightly lower and the tanto design is ideal for thrust cuts, but the roadhouse has a little belly as well but is still rather straight making it more than capable of adequate slash cuts too.

Under ideal circumstances with sufficient training, those minor differences really might make a notable difference.

But realistically, when applied in a combat situation, they would both do the job just fine.
 
prw166 said:
I guess we have very different training and experience. I would be interested in what circumstances it has been proven where the knife is superior to the gun.
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I have seen old VHS videos demonstrating that a knife wielder can close the distance before an armed person can remove their weapon. I'll try to find a refernce to it or youtube.

If the armed person is in close range I'd prefer to have a knife.

So to answer your question (IMO) - Close quarters combat negates the benefits of gun over blade...

I have trained multiple weapon arts including arnis and ninjutsu. I also have handgun training.

I think anything under 3 metres is advantage knife from memory.
 
And once again this forum can't answer OP's question and instead has a fit over the idea of a knife being used as a weapon. Personally, I'd rather have the Roadhouse as a fighting knife. Super-RH even more so...
 
Over Kill said:
We should also keep in mind the posibility of throwing a knife.
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In my opinion, throwing a last ditch weapon, in this case a folding knife, would be the quickest way to end up 6 feet under in a lethal confrontation. The margin for error is huge, as the only reason that you are using the knife in the first place is because your life is in danger, and you feel that there is insufficient time to draw your firearm.

If you don't land an incapasitating hit with the knife on your first try, which would we VERY hard considering we're talking a less than 4 inch folding knife, he will most certainly put a bullet in your face. In my opinion if you have a knife and need to defend yourself with it, you hold onto it like it's gold, and NEVER throw it.

I'm curious as to the nature of the training that you received?

EDIT: However, to answer your original question, i agree with what others have said, my preference in a defence scenario between the two knives mentioned would be the roadhouse for the reasons listed by others.

-Will
 
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WillSwift said:
In my opinion, throwing a last ditch weapon, in this case a folding knife, would be the quickest way to end up 6 feet under in a lethal confrontation. The margin for error is huge, as the only reason that you are using the knife in the first place is because your life is in danger, and you feel that there is insufficient time to draw your firearm.

If you don't land an incapasitating hit with the knife on your first try, which would we VERY hard considering we're talking a less than 4 inch folding knife, he will most certainly put a bullet in your face. In my opinion if you have a knife and need to defend yourself with it, you hold onto it like it's gold, and NEVER throw it.

I'm curious as to the nature of the training that you received?

EDIT: However, to answer your original question, i agree with what others have said, my preference in a defence scenario between the two knives mentioned would be the roadhouse for the reasons listed by others.

-Will
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Well for starters, my main blade and the blade i would infact draw in a knife fight is a fixed blade. The emerson horseman (which I would like to fight with out of the two) would be a back up to my fixed blade. If i felt like i could throw my back up blade with effect i would in a heart beat. There are to many variables and I would really rather waste my time on something else.

Your opinions are your own and nothing said here has even made me question myself on the matter. Think what ever you like but just know that there are people out there who count on the fact that you are going to take the time to calculate the threat, go for your firearm while standing your ground all the while he is running at you and drawing a knife from a chest rig in one fluid motion and is on you before your muzzel is even leveled. Lets say you have a glock and dont even need to take that extra split second to take the saftey off and you get a shot off center mass because that is the best you could do before being overrun. He was wearing body armor and with his adrenaline amped he hardly feels it. Even if you had body armor as well the distance is closed and a knife is unforgiving once "the trigger is pulled".
 
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Why would you ever even consider using the roadhouse in a defence scenario unless it was a last ditch? I would never waste time drawing a folding knife when i had a perfectly good fixed blade at the time just so that i could throw it and maybe land a hit, my focus would be on drawing the fixed blade while i closed instead. And I reiterate, the only time i would use the Emerson would be if i had NO other options, and in that case, i definitely wouldn't want it to leave my hand until the other guy wasn't moving anymore.

-Will
 
Maybe I should reword my initial question. I thought it was straightfoward enough but apparently not.
 
I'm new here and all, but do topics like this usually end up spiraling down into gibberish, one-up-manship, ridiculous theoretical situations, and not talking about or answering the original posters question?

Of the two, I'd pick the roadhouse. But, carry a CQC15... puncturing AND slashing. Of course, I'd rather carry a gun, but stupid choices (and convictions) when I was younger ensure that that will never happen.
 
I don't think the knife will matter in this case. Both knives are extremely similar, and differ mostly in blade shape. In my opinion, it won't matter. Yes, bladeshape might make a difference of a 1/4" of cutting or so, but that's not really important. What's important is that you can avoid getting cut, and stop the opponent. A change in blade shape won't make too big a difference.
 
Minibear464 said:
I don't think the knife will matter in this case. Both knives are extremely similar, and differ mostly in blade shape. In my opinion, it won't matter. Yes, bladeshape might make a difference of a 1/4" of cutting or so, but that's not really important. What's important is that you can avoid getting cut, and stop the opponent. A change in blade shape won't make too big a difference.
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I am surprised that you were the first to being this up. They are very similar.
 
Over Kill said:
Fact: If the knife combatant is wearing a vest and already has the knife quietly drawn, he can kill 95% of even the top gun combat experts.
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Do you have a source for your fact? I'd like to read the study where some expert figured out that a knife proves to be more effective 95% of the time as compared to a gun.
 
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