fighting knife of choice
- Thread starter roadkill2
- Start date
I don't really agree with calling a defensive folder a "fighting knife." To me, that term refers to large bowies and the like intended for fighting with another individual who also has such a knife; you might also extend it to man-killers like the Katz Alley Kat, Gerber Mark II, and Applegate-Fairbairn.
Sorry, had to get that out of my system 'cause I'm engaged in a long post on the subject below. Didn't mean anything by it
Anyhow, I recommend a Spyderco Civilian. It's a purpose-designed defensive folder brought about by the requests of the law enforcement community, and it's the only knife Spyderco intentionally designed as a weapon (well, it was when I got mine; I guess there's the Matriarch now, too).
It's got a standard Spyderco hole for fast manual opening, and a really intimidating 4-inch hook-like blade that is designed to penetrate heavy clothing. I always figured the intent was to produce a messy but fairly superficial wound with just about any strike, convincing an assailant to desist or giving you a chance to run. It could certainly be lethal, but that doesn't seem to be the intent of the design.
Check out the "Matriarch Pics" thread on the Spyderco forum for a look at the Civilian and its new, lightweight sister. The Civilian can squeak by under $150, and the Matriarch hopefully far less, though I don't know what the availability is like.
OK, I write too much. Good luck!
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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
Sorry, had to get that out of my system 'cause I'm engaged in a long post on the subject below. Didn't mean anything by it
Anyhow, I recommend a Spyderco Civilian. It's a purpose-designed defensive folder brought about by the requests of the law enforcement community, and it's the only knife Spyderco intentionally designed as a weapon (well, it was when I got mine; I guess there's the Matriarch now, too).
It's got a standard Spyderco hole for fast manual opening, and a really intimidating 4-inch hook-like blade that is designed to penetrate heavy clothing. I always figured the intent was to produce a messy but fairly superficial wound with just about any strike, convincing an assailant to desist or giving you a chance to run. It could certainly be lethal, but that doesn't seem to be the intent of the design.
Check out the "Matriarch Pics" thread on the Spyderco forum for a look at the Civilian and its new, lightweight sister. The Civilian can squeak by under $150, and the Matriarch hopefully far less, though I don't know what the availability is like.
OK, I write too much. Good luck!
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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
Sal Glesser
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Roadkill2 - Corduroy's observations are from a "Realworld" point of view. "Fighting Knife" sends a different message than "Defensive folder". Also a very accurate description of the Civilian and its "role".
(I have been recently trying to promote the term "Martial Bladecraft" which puts "Knife fighting" more in the realm of "Fencing" and "Karate" (Martial arts). Allows knife nuts to talk to each other without non knife people getting the "wrong message".
Another point I would add to Corduroy's. A knife carried for the possible use as a defensive folder SHOULD BE RAZOR SHARP AND NEVER BE USED FOR ANYTHING ELSE. Many people carry a knife with the security that it can be used as a defensive tool "in a pinch". Not if it's dull. You cannot cut cardboard, rope, insulation or whatever all day and expect that edge to perform "to the best of its ability" should it be needed. Just a thought to share.
sal
(I have been recently trying to promote the term "Martial Bladecraft" which puts "Knife fighting" more in the realm of "Fencing" and "Karate" (Martial arts). Allows knife nuts to talk to each other without non knife people getting the "wrong message".
Another point I would add to Corduroy's. A knife carried for the possible use as a defensive folder SHOULD BE RAZOR SHARP AND NEVER BE USED FOR ANYTHING ELSE. Many people carry a knife with the security that it can be used as a defensive tool "in a pinch". Not if it's dull. You cannot cut cardboard, rope, insulation or whatever all day and expect that edge to perform "to the best of its ability" should it be needed. Just a thought to share.
sal
Man, am I glad to hear Sal say that. I've always carried two (O.K., usually three) knives, one a utility blade that I actually cut things with and the other a defensive blade that I never cut anything with. I've sometimes wondered if buying a knife knowing that (God willing) I would never use it made sense. Nice to have a little validation. Thanks for sharing that, Sal.
Jack
Jack
Professor
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I apologize Mr. Glesser, but I'd have to disagree with your statement concerning carrying a defensive knife for that purpose alone. To my thinking, it all depends on what your training requires. In some cases it is simply something that perforates; in this instance sharpness is not a main concern. As well, to keep one honest, it has always been my belief that one should carry a knife with the intention of "utility first," in that stripping wire and all else shouldn't have all that great an effect on its defensive capabilities if you're competent. Anyone who's carrying three different blades on their person for three different varied tasks is just asking for trouble in this age of litigation. Call me a bastard, but ask your attorneys.
Professor,
I apologize for disagreeing with you. I carry the largest folder I can for defensive purposes, a KFF. That knife stays in the pocket and rarely sees the light of day or dark of night. Why? Because it scares the bejeezes out of folks. It also stays sharp as a razor. So, I also carry a Native which I use for general utility. It sees usage every day. And I run this knife through the sharpmaker several strokes at minimum twice a week.
The fact is if I have draw the KFF I'm in deep doodoo already. I wouldn't worry about the lawyers until later, if I'm still in the position to do so.
Roadkill, for under $150, I rely on the Pinnacle and carry it when I need a smaller print in my pants pocket.
sing
P.S. Still looking forward to the SpyderCo Blue Native and the later "Martial Blade Craft Folder" (I hope).
I apologize for disagreeing with you. I carry the largest folder I can for defensive purposes, a KFF. That knife stays in the pocket and rarely sees the light of day or dark of night. Why? Because it scares the bejeezes out of folks. It also stays sharp as a razor. So, I also carry a Native which I use for general utility. It sees usage every day. And I run this knife through the sharpmaker several strokes at minimum twice a week.
The fact is if I have draw the KFF I'm in deep doodoo already. I wouldn't worry about the lawyers until later, if I'm still in the position to do so.
Roadkill, for under $150, I rely on the Pinnacle and carry it when I need a smaller print in my pants pocket.
sing
P.S. Still looking forward to the SpyderCo Blue Native and the later "Martial Blade Craft Folder" (I hope).
hello people, im sorry fella's but i agree with Mr. Glesser. I carry on a normal basis three blades, my AFCK full serrated for purely defensive and offensive uses, a spyderco delica-new version with metal clip and plain edge for all utility uses, and a Newt Livesay "WOO" tanto neck under my shirt, the reason 3 knives is one for utility, one as a fighter, and the neck knife as a backup. A defensive knife is a knife that is going to save your damn life, i recomend keeping it really sharp, the meat cutting edge, not the edge that shaves. I recommend full serrated, as i mentioned my afck is a good folder, i usually carry a civilian full serrated w/g-10 handle, i rotate from day to day, as all these knives i mentioned are completly battle proven, there great cutters. And to answer roadkill2's question, under $150, i would carry the knives i mentioned, prefably the civilian, but if your talking about close quarters battle in the jungle or warfare, i would have to pick a fixed blade, my favorite choices are the Spec plus Survival Bowie, Cold steel Gurkha light Kukrie-hope i spelt that correctly. You want a big motha, a knife that can chop limbs off.
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Sal,
Prior to disagreeing with you, I would like to thank you. I have been carrying two of your Delicas for > 5 years now. One is serrated, the other plain edged. They are always in my front pockets, and they are frequently used for utility purposes. Rarely is one of them dull, and never both.
You stated
A knife carried for the possible use as a defensive folder SHOULD BE RAZOR SHARP AND NEVER BE USED FOR ANYTHING ELSE.
If a knife is solely reserved for defensive use, it will not get much use by most of us. On the other hand a utility knife is used many times every day. The muscle memory that is necessary to deploy the knife on an unconscious basis under stress is developed without effort. The fact that the knife is used for utility purposes does not preclude keeping the knife sharp. I believe that the greater facility that virtually all users will have with a frequently used utility knife far outweighs the minor differences in sharpness that will be caused by prior use of the knife in the day.
For a heavy user who dulls the utility knife partway through the day, I will concede your point. In this case either an extra knife that can be relied upon to be sharp, or a sharpener to touch up the blade after use, will ensure a sharp knife when needed.
[This message has been edited by Howard Wallace (edited 25 April 1999).]
Prior to disagreeing with you, I would like to thank you. I have been carrying two of your Delicas for > 5 years now. One is serrated, the other plain edged. They are always in my front pockets, and they are frequently used for utility purposes. Rarely is one of them dull, and never both.
You stated
A knife carried for the possible use as a defensive folder SHOULD BE RAZOR SHARP AND NEVER BE USED FOR ANYTHING ELSE.
If a knife is solely reserved for defensive use, it will not get much use by most of us. On the other hand a utility knife is used many times every day. The muscle memory that is necessary to deploy the knife on an unconscious basis under stress is developed without effort. The fact that the knife is used for utility purposes does not preclude keeping the knife sharp. I believe that the greater facility that virtually all users will have with a frequently used utility knife far outweighs the minor differences in sharpness that will be caused by prior use of the knife in the day.
For a heavy user who dulls the utility knife partway through the day, I will concede your point. In this case either an extra knife that can be relied upon to be sharp, or a sharpener to touch up the blade after use, will ensure a sharp knife when needed.
[This message has been edited by Howard Wallace (edited 25 April 1999).]
I'd take fixed blades over folders and if I had to use a folder, manuals over automatics. The T-handle is my favorite, and I think Cold Steel's Safe Keeper I is in that $150 price range. But if I had to use a folder, I'm go with a bali or with the MicroTech SOCOM, which is a great utility knife too, by the way.
I might also add that Sal's point should be obvious to anyone who has actually fought with knives or at least practices. It's fundamental.
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Win
Knife lover, Philosopher, Humanitarian, and All-around nice guy
(all right, so I'm just a knife lover)
I might also add that Sal's point should be obvious to anyone who has actually fought with knives or at least practices. It's fundamental.
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Win
Knife lover, Philosopher, Humanitarian, and All-around nice guy
(all right, so I'm just a knife lover)
Professor
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The reverse grip is what I'd most likely rely on in a close quarters situation. In this instance, where perforation is the objective, realistically a butter knife will break contact. I'd have to agree with the point of muscle memory too. Strong side folder carry is going to be where you go in a pinch, and that's likely to be where your utility folder is for purposes of convenience anyway.
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A knife should never be relied on for "main line" self defense(imo).
But for a good concealed carry backup, I would go with one of the many fine sub 5" fixed blade defense knives out there.
I just got a Polkowski Pole Cat, it seems to fit the bill very well.
R.J. Martins Kwaiken & Kozuka's look very nice, Ive wanted one for some time, and all of Randys knives are...."scary sharp"
But for a good concealed carry backup, I would go with one of the many fine sub 5" fixed blade defense knives out there.
I just got a Polkowski Pole Cat, it seems to fit the bill very well.
R.J. Martins Kwaiken & Kozuka's look very nice, Ive wanted one for some time, and all of Randys knives are...."scary sharp"
I know this is a knife forum but if I thought
I needed a defensive weapon every time I left the house I'd put one of my pistols in my pocket - which I did much more often when I was younger and could stay up past midnight <grin>.
That said, I carry around a BM 350. Is it my favorite knife, not at all, but it has a 3" ATS-34 blade, is < 2 oz. with the clip removed, passed the liner lock test, and has a very flat profile for my back pocket. It fits my needs as a day to day carry knife.
Whoops, guess I didn't answer the original question but the BM 350 is what I'd be using if necessary, although not what I'd prefer.
Anyone have any recommendations for a better pocket knife with removable clip, lightweight, and flat profile?
I needed a defensive weapon every time I left the house I'd put one of my pistols in my pocket - which I did much more often when I was younger and could stay up past midnight <grin>.
That said, I carry around a BM 350. Is it my favorite knife, not at all, but it has a 3" ATS-34 blade, is < 2 oz. with the clip removed, passed the liner lock test, and has a very flat profile for my back pocket. It fits my needs as a day to day carry knife.
Whoops, guess I didn't answer the original question but the BM 350 is what I'd be using if necessary, although not what I'd prefer.
Anyone have any recommendations for a better pocket knife with removable clip, lightweight, and flat profile?
Sal Glesser
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Prefessor - perf is good, just harder. slash and run with a sharp piece is easier. No argument with "trying to explain why I have 12 knives with me". "They just don't understand".
Howard - no argument, sharp is the issue.
Sharp is always the issue. "Happiness in the knife is always found in the sharpener".
sal
Howard - no argument, sharp is the issue.
Sharp is always the issue. "Happiness in the knife is always found in the sharpener".
sal
I agree with with Mr. Glesser, and will add that this gives you an excellent reason to always have a really nice production knife in your pocket, and to completely baby it. Forgive me for calling it this, but I always have one such "toy" in my front pocket, either an AFCK, Civilian, or Police Model. I call it a toy because that's essentially what it is to me except when I practice with it or on the day I hope never comes when I may have to use it.
Leave all that messy work to a back-pocket beater, a knife that you can use hard and not shed a tear over it. Mine is a Pro-Grip, replacing an EZ-Out that served well for years but never held its edge long and was a bit too aggressive looking.
On the Stryker / Genesis question, I worry about that "deep carry" clip making access a bit slower, though I suppose practice might nullify this. I haven't tested them, but I'd bet good money the Genesis pierces better with its slim profile, and it definitely has better slashing potential. I don't personally feel a folder blade needs to be as beefy as the Stryker's, because the lock will fail far before a slimmer blade would break. That said, the Stryker's ergonomics are fantastic; I could just hold one all day. My answer is: I dunno, six versus one-half-dozen. Sorry
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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
Leave all that messy work to a back-pocket beater, a knife that you can use hard and not shed a tear over it. Mine is a Pro-Grip, replacing an EZ-Out that served well for years but never held its edge long and was a bit too aggressive looking.
On the Stryker / Genesis question, I worry about that "deep carry" clip making access a bit slower, though I suppose practice might nullify this. I haven't tested them, but I'd bet good money the Genesis pierces better with its slim profile, and it definitely has better slashing potential. I don't personally feel a folder blade needs to be as beefy as the Stryker's, because the lock will fail far before a slimmer blade would break. That said, the Stryker's ergonomics are fantastic; I could just hold one all day. My answer is: I dunno, six versus one-half-dozen. Sorry
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-Corduroy
(Why else would a bear want a pocket?)
Gollnick
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The Rekat Escalator is made for the purpose of self-defense. But, you really have to train and practice to learn to defend yourself with a knife. The best, most perfect knife in the world will do you no good if you don't know how to use it. In fact, if your opponent is trained, he will disarm you and use your own knife against you before you can blink your eyes. As for the idea that if some guy tries to pull anything on me, I'll just pull my knife and intimidate him, well in Oregon, and in many other states, that just licenses your opponent to pull his gun and shoot you regardless of "who started it." There's a old saying about not bringing a knife to a gun fight and it's really true unless you really know what you're doing with that knife and can do it fast and do it under the stress of a real situation. My advice is get some training, get some experience, and get an Escalator.
Chuck
Chuck
First choice Hobbit warrior,second choice folding hobbit. I do not plan to get into a knife fight. If it happens it is because I've made a serious error in judgement. It will be very close, reverse grip distance. Go on adrenalin burn,don't hesitate, don't back down. Blast in with blood in your eye and fangs slashing. There is NO winner in a knife fight. Survival is all that matters. If I should some day be without a firearm for defense I would choose either a Bowie,Kukri, Wakizashi in that order. If I had to stay with a knife/short sword.
Good Hunting,
ts
Good Hunting,
ts
Hey, good, looks like none of us are in that whacko category. A would prefer as a "fighting knife" a platoon of Marines with heavy weapons, failing that a Remington 870, or then my Bagwell Bowie, but as we are talking of defensive folders and the like, here goes. I do go on a bit...
Sal look at my post regarding Blade Forum next project knife. Jon, A better knife than BM350 is Spydie Endura 98 or Delica 98, clip comes off, reverses and they are light and flat, cheaper and your fingers will easily stay off the blade.
Roadkill, for $150.00 you can keep THREE ENDURAS with you, or one in your car and one in your desk, tackle box, tool box, etc. I have carried the Endura forever (1991 or so) and have given and sold them to friends, used them to cut beer cans into funnels for gasoline (what seems wrong with that after the fact...?). I have always carried them fully serrated and cliped into my fron stron side pocket. As far as it being sharp, I used it in warehouse work in my younger days and it sharpened up nicely.
Razor sharp, Sal? Two items for you, not to be disrepectful, mind.
1) Ever cut a steak with one of your knives? They SHRED THE MEAT. END OF STORY. Martial Bladecraft in my eyes is about doing damage. Spyder Edge does. Period.
2) Cut myself with Delica one day. Just a nick, one tooth, took styptic powder (that stuff the vet uses to stop the dog's bleeding when trimming the nails) to stop it.
Do I make my point? As far as perferation (love the new PC stuff here, it does mean I can speak in public about this subject) that neato pointy blade will just go right in and make a pointy mess out of the situation at hand.
Endura weighs three ounces, is common enough I have gone through O'Hare Airport with one, as well as Baltimore Washington International, opens in either reverse or foward grip easily, positively and quickly, is inexpensive, and is perhaps most importantly, is a buck-simple design.
My choice, perhaps as carry of the century. Sal, your next fixed blade could be an Endura-configuration fixed blade with paper micarta handle, AUS 8 or 440V blade (prefer AUS 8), full serrations, kydex SOB or strong side in pants carry, and same size and shape as endura 98 handle. Geez, I love that knife. I just bought two more, just in case Pre-98 handles, AUS 8 steel.
Sal look at my post regarding Blade Forum next project knife. Jon, A better knife than BM350 is Spydie Endura 98 or Delica 98, clip comes off, reverses and they are light and flat, cheaper and your fingers will easily stay off the blade.
Roadkill, for $150.00 you can keep THREE ENDURAS with you, or one in your car and one in your desk, tackle box, tool box, etc. I have carried the Endura forever (1991 or so) and have given and sold them to friends, used them to cut beer cans into funnels for gasoline (what seems wrong with that after the fact...?). I have always carried them fully serrated and cliped into my fron stron side pocket. As far as it being sharp, I used it in warehouse work in my younger days and it sharpened up nicely.
Razor sharp, Sal? Two items for you, not to be disrepectful, mind.
1) Ever cut a steak with one of your knives? They SHRED THE MEAT. END OF STORY. Martial Bladecraft in my eyes is about doing damage. Spyder Edge does. Period.
2) Cut myself with Delica one day. Just a nick, one tooth, took styptic powder (that stuff the vet uses to stop the dog's bleeding when trimming the nails) to stop it.
Do I make my point? As far as perferation (love the new PC stuff here, it does mean I can speak in public about this subject) that neato pointy blade will just go right in and make a pointy mess out of the situation at hand.
Endura weighs three ounces, is common enough I have gone through O'Hare Airport with one, as well as Baltimore Washington International, opens in either reverse or foward grip easily, positively and quickly, is inexpensive, and is perhaps most importantly, is a buck-simple design.
My choice, perhaps as carry of the century. Sal, your next fixed blade could be an Endura-configuration fixed blade with paper micarta handle, AUS 8 or 440V blade (prefer AUS 8), full serrations, kydex SOB or strong side in pants carry, and same size and shape as endura 98 handle. Geez, I love that knife. I just bought two more, just in case Pre-98 handles, AUS 8 steel.