Fighting Knife Testing and Reviews ??????

Steve, regarding impacts, it doesn't matter if your blocking speed is low, only the relative speed between your blade and whatever you are blocking. A hard swing of a chain at a blade is very similar to a hard swing of a blade at a chain (the difference will come from the fact that the chain doesn't move in a linear manner). The critical question is, would you use a fighting blade to block a full force swing from a hard object (chain or similar) and how much damage is reasonable for it to take?

While blade steels are very hard and don't compress easily, compression is determined by pressure and pressure by area. The low area of the very edge means that very high pressures will be generated from very low forces and thus even moderate impacts off of hard targets will flatten the edge until the area increases enough for the pressure to drop below the compression cut off level.

You want isolate the attribute you are testing
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Yes, this was my point. Mass is a significant factor in phonebook stab I did and think it could lead to very misleading conclusions. There are large variations in mass between even similar sized blades because of geometry and materials. There is a simple solution which I tried yesterday. Just stab the phonebook in a horizontal plane. This seems to be more of a thrust like motion to me anyway and it removes the advantage of the mass and in fact turns it into a disadvantage and shows clearly how smaller lighter knives can have stronger penetration, precision and accuracy especially on repeated strikes.

Sing :

No point in a big bowie vs. A/F dagger.
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The point is not simply to decide on a "winner" or a "better" blade but to describe the performance variations. I would very much be interested in seeing how a small fighter and a large fighter compare. It would be informative to see for example how much precision would be lost on thrusts, what the speed decrease would be, how much cutting ability would be gained for deep strikes etc. . What do you lose going from 3/16" to 1/4", what do you gain, and how much is the difference?

Testing very dissimilar blades side by side has been a very critical process for me as it allows an undertanding of geometrical influences that would be very difficult in similar blades. It is something that is very common outside of blade work and I don't understand the reluctance to it.

The first time I went fishing with one of my uncles who was very experienced he asked me to pick out a rod. I chose a very stout salt water boat rod (because it was very big - moronic reason I know). He explained that it was not the right rod for what we were doing (freshwater trout fishing, up to 12" say) but I wanted it anyway. He let me use it and later on when I was having little success he loaned me mine and I could immediately understand the difference and why the boat rod was not a great rod for this type of fishing.

Brian, one of the main factors in handle retention is the amount of friction between your hand and the handle. This is a direct function of how much force you exert on the grip. It is quite possible that due to personal strength and toughness that handles will succeed for some and fail for others. And if you have enough grip strength (Joe Kinney) anything is secure. Like I said above though, this is not a critical problem.

As for subjective testing, as long as your baseline is described clearly everyone can understand your results. Blades are not that complicated a tool. Many tools more complicated are evaluated in a very systematic way resulting in a positive development. It is certainly my end goal to develop a manner of evaluating blades that greatly reduces the need for including a baseline as this increases the workload significantly (at least 2-3 times).


-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 07-11-2000).]
 
Cliff,

>>The point is not to decide on a "winner" but to describe the performance variations. I would very much be interested in seeing how a small fighter and a large fighter compare. It would be informative to see for example how much precision would be lost on thrusts, what the speed decrease would be, how much cutting ability would be gained for deep strikes etc. <<

My reference is really on the "tactical" end. What you do with a short and a longer blade may overlap in some areas but there are other areas where the approach will be different in defense and attacks measures. You would want each blade to designed play to it's strengths in their respective arenas. Again, as an example, I would want and expect a longer blade to be able to take impact with another. This would dictate a thicker stock. For a smaller blade, I would place a premium on really good cutting and penetration abilities and prefer thinner stock since I don't expect to have blade to blade clashes. In this latter category, I wouldn't use the small Busse or Becker though they could get the job done by someone
with better skills than I. I would prefer a Hossom, or a Hallberg which I am now testing, because the edge is keener and will cut through with more ease whatever soft impediment I may hit such as denim, leather, etc.

>>Testing very dissimilar blades side by side has been a very critical process for me as it allows an undertanding of geometrical influences that would be very difficult in similar blades. It is something that is very common outside of blade work and I don't understand the reluctance to it.<<

I can understand how that makes sense if you're sort of looking at those attributes from a more "academic" (sorry, not meant as a negative, just can't think of another term) perspective. However, for the player, the the context for each type of blade work can be very different in terms for range, tactics and attributes.

sing

AKTI #A000356
 
Ivan, pretty much everything I've heard about the Gurkhas suggests that they embody the concept of "its the warrior, not the weapon". As such, I don't think your story is really indicative of the overall function of the khukri. From what I know of Filipino martial arts, and what I've heard of the Gurkhas, the result would have been much the same if they'd had kitchen knives, or wooden sticks.

[This message has been edited by Joel Stave (edited 07-11-2000).]
 
Sing:

However, for the player, the the context for each type of blade work can be very different in terms for range, tactics and attributes.
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This is not limited to fighting knives. In fact simple utility knives vary even more because the range of work is much broader. Besides the information on the nature of the performance (which is critical unless you want to be completely dependent on the maker), comparing dissimilar blades can also can lead to significant development in regards to method. Which is to me as important, or more so, as the blades themselves. If you don't understand how to use a knife, even the best of them is not going to be of much use.

[small knife criteria]

the edge is keener and will cut through with more ease whatever soft impediment I may hit such as denim, leather, etc.
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What is your required durability limit on such knives?

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 07-11-2000).]
 
Cliff,

With regard to the first part of your last post, I am just going to beg off. I do feel as if the discussion can go round and round. And some folks will deem it "silly" which may well be.
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With regards to the second question pertaining to small defensive knives (rather than a "knife fighting another knife" type), I would conjecture that the requirements in edge retention wouldn't be that high though I would want to have some tensile strength. It has one job to do after which it has earned more than its keep. However, most of my small knifes have utility purposes in addition to some consideration to defensive possibilities thrown in. The requirements would be different. What these requirements are is something I am still brewing in my head. Kind of takes me back to the "individual preference thing."
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sing

AKTI #A000356
 
The F/S survival knife, better known as the Commando knife/dagger was not that well thought of when first battle proven. That is because it was issued to every Tom, Dick and Harry. The tip broke when used as a utility knife, which is what most soldiers used a knife for.

When was the last time an all swinging and dancing custom fighter knife was in a real fight? Fighting knives in combat hardly register in casualty statistics and are useually bracketed with clubs and broken bottles.

Test for fighting knives? You can prove its up to the job; ie: it won't fall apart. Those who train will find a knife eventually that suits their style, or the head honcho's that is doing the teaching.

I like a good read and that is what most publish testing is all about. I've done a few myself. They can educate. They do put pressure on the manufacturers to produce a half decent product. They can tip off the public of rip offs, or failures in the product. They may even save you money by stopping you buying something that you don't need.
What they can't do is tell how you would use the knife and if you would find it any good. Everyone has their own ideas, opinions and ways of using things.

I wouldn't buy a knife blind or on reputation alone. I need to handle it. Even then its only after using it for some time do I have any faith in it. I have a few mistakes gathering dust. They felt good, great knife for someone, but they just didn't work for me.

Comparison tests of knives of very similar function are the authors results and thats all. Differences are often marginal.
When I tought handguns, I had the same problem. The best gun is the one that works for you. It doesn't mean a thing that XYZ uses it.
But I enjoy reading gun articles and comparisons anyway.

All out Fighters can be beautifully made, I love them, but I cannot think of a use for them. After your fists any good utility knife will do, better still a handgun. Hell why not go the full hog and take an assault shotgun or rifle.
 
I dont think i would count Machetes as combAT WEAPons as the poor victims of this knife in Africa were so many defenseless men, women, and children who were unarmed and simply butchered for the most part. And I cant picture the Ghurkas using any othere weapon besides their KUKS against those Germans in the Italian farmhouse. The verdict is in for the 20th and 19th century! The Khukri by a landslide!
 
With all these long, rambling posts, Please read my signature.

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" The true way of the sword is the craft of defeating the enemy in a fight, and nothing other than this" Ibid

www.lameyknives.com
 
Donna: You're right, I do think that the person holding the weapon will make more of a difference than the weapon itself. Maybe I'm just myopic about it, but I don't think it has anything to do with my style (although it is a central tenet). I think it applies to any weapon style at all -- firearms included. Whatever weapon we're talking about, imagine yourself with the best available. Now imagine you're facing a master in that style, armed with a POS. Who wins?

That said, even if someone can make do with whatever comes to hand, they will certainly be even more effective if they have the right tool for the job, and I can get as anal-retentive as the next person (depending on who I'm standing next to) about details of blade design and manufacture. I've certainly made Jerry Hossom a little nuts with my concerns over various details of the knives he's making me.

It often amazes me how much energy, effort and thought can go into what is essentially just a piece of sharp metal with a handle. It similarly amazes me how much fun it is.
 
Donna, I agree with you, and i realize testing is an important tool in helping the knife public choose there knife, epecially when it comes to a knife that may be used for a back up weapon.

I just wanted to show off my new signature
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" The true way of the sword is the craft of defeating the enemy in a fight, and nothing other than this" Ibid

www.lameyknives.com
 
Actually, I have found that the more questions asked, the more knowldge transferred. When teaching, there are no dumb questions asked.

I really didn't know that there were as many people interested in the blade as a weapon as there are. Living in a rural setting and not getting "out to the city" very often kind of limits my view of most people (since I think that there are probably more people in cities than in the country).
From just reading of the posts, most would like to have a light, long, sharp, and drop proof blade, along with the skills necessary to be the victor in any encounter. I had always heard that the best knife was the one you are carrying when you need it.
I have seen some nice shoulder rigs for wearing under suits or jackets that would hold an eight or nine inch bowie or similar knife. It was a leather rig similar to a gun rig but the blade hung handle down for immediate deployment.
Heard a story of a banker in Ark. with a similar rig that was approached by 3 men, one of whom was armed and was seeking the funds of the bank. The gunman died, the closest was cut badly, and the third was never heard of again. Nothing was ever put in the paper and the area was cleaned up and business as usual. Don't really know if it happened for sure but if not, it could have.

I have really enjoyed reading about the qualities of a "fighting knife". As a maker, it used to bother me that one of mine might be used for evil, but if I can make enough of them, then the good guys may have 2 of mine.
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Donna, thanks for the thread and you didn't ask near as many questions as some do. I appreciate the questions because it makes me think of "why", and sometimes that leads to a better blade and more happy people.
If you want, after the hammer-in at Washington in Oct., I will let you test a blade of your design (within limits). Needs to be about 15" OAL, 10" or less blade, and 16 to 18 oz. Just send me a drawing of the shape you like.

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Ray Kirk
http://www.tah-usa.net/raker
 
Hi Ray,

>>I have really enjoyed reading about the qualities of a "fighting knife". As a maker, it used to bother me that one of mine might be used for evil, but if I can make enough of them, then the good guys may have 2 of mine.<<

Just as the best knife is only as effective as the skills of the user, the evilness or goodness of a knife is in the intent and soul of the user.
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I think you can be fairly assured that most of your knives will not end up with a bad guy. Most won't spend the money or time to ask for a custom, though they may steal one if possible.

As for the effectiveness of a knife, the reason I got into weapons training was an experinece several years ago right near my workplace. About ten teens/young adults got into something with two others. Of the two, one had a knife and he went through eight them in a matter of a minute. Several of the wounds were fairly serious and life threatening and the others were minor because these guys were FLEEING! Everybody survived because there is major hospital within two blocks of the area. I work in community programs have broken up/intervened in fights and melees in and around my facility. I just missed this one by five minutes. A youth worker from another agency happened upon this one. She was slashed for her intervention. One trains with the blade to know how to use it but in so doing has a better chance of stopping of someone who is weilding one (or to know enough to GET OUT OF DODGE!
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sing

AKTI #A000356

 
Sing, the reason I asked about durability is that the smaller knives you mention, the Hossom for example, have far thicker edge geometries than the high end utility knives I have and thus will not cut nearly as well (concering the thicker edges on Busse Combat's blades, they are actually thinner than the edges that were described on Hossoms bowies).

Now I can understand you wanting the extra material for durability reasons, but how much is needed for a light fighter? If you went to 0.01" behind the edge with a 15 degree bevel, on what test would it fail? R.J. Martin and Ed Shott even go much thinner than this and the cutting ability rises significantly.

-Cliff
 
Here is how I categorise, define combat/fighting knives.
Daggers: stab attack ie: F/S.
Fighters: slash and stab attack ie: up to a 7 inch bowie.
Dirks: slash and stab attacks ie: over 7 inches.
Butchers: brute force over elegance ie: Kukri, machete.
Anything over 14 inches is a Sword, short or long.

Can anyone think of a better way?

[This message has been edited by GREENJACKET (edited 07-14-2000).]
 
Cliff,

I haven't received in hand my smaller Hossom yet. So, I really can't comment on the edge thickness or cutting ability. I do look forward to doing a comparative review on it.
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In the meantime, I do favor a thinner edge provided a certain amount of toughness for the tasks I can project for it, e.g. whaching/chopping some wood but not necessarily cutting through metal, etc.

I just finished the Hallberg review. Be interested in your feedback.
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sing

AKTI #A000356
 
Ray Kirk,

I consider my interest in big fighting blades to be academic for the most part. My usual carry is a 4" "utility" folder that I just happen to like for its versatility, so to speak. If I ever do have to use my knife for defense, assuming I have time to wish for anything, I would be wishin that 4" folder was a 3 foot light saber. But I just don't see myself carrying anything over 5" very often, not that I wouldn't like to.

My experience in studying bladed martial arts has given me an appreciation for the effectiveness of larger blades, but the most important thing I am learning is how to face a blade empty-handed, to possibly avoid getting killed while I buy time to escape or counterattack.

It seems to be the nature of knife makers to always be trying to make a better knife, whatever its use, and to do that, you have to know the parameters.

Edge thickness:

On fighters, I like a moderately thick base, sharpened at around 30-35 degrees included angle. This seems to offer aggressive cutting and good strength. I think Darrel Ralph is planning on putting .02 base on his fighter edge, which sounds just right for a small fighter. Generally, the thinner the better for me personally, but if you think about what you might want a big fighter to do, more durability should be at least possible depending on how you sharpen.

I think a really thin edge is a great idea on a 4" fighter. You won't try to pary any weapon with a blade that short, so a zero edge on a Martin Kozuka makes perfect sense to me. Yahoo.

[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 07-14-2000).]
 
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