fighting Ninja Sword

Gee it is harder to kill the 'ninja' myth than reputedly it is to kill a 'ninja'.
Damn Hoolywoo!
I always pictured 'ninjas' as pre-pubescent boys sneaking around, peeping in windows wearing OD Sharkingator knives made of titanalium and edged with diamonds to be tree-splitting sharp. :eek:


Speaking of perpetrating mythology, I finally saw Kill Bill....very Tarantino.... I expected less but it was somehow strangely cool in a Pulp Fiction odd twisted sort of way.
 
Here's a good website for ninja information:
www.realultimatepower.net

You'd better watch what you'd say, Merek, I hear ninja can flip out over nothing... :D

Kill Bill is very cool!

Part two is less cool, but still worth watching.
 
re: edge quenches

Edge quenching does put all kinds of crazy stress in the blade and in very simple steels with low depth of hardenability the procedure creates a lot of curve. Steels like 5160 don't seem to curve at all...maybe in a long blade, but most of the sword makers who do this hardening-curving thing use even simpler steels like true straight carbon. The curve is created by the fact that hardened steel has greater volume than annealed.

I curve my through-tempered blades because the cut better with less skill.
 
LostboY said:
Koreans used straight blades- Maybe the ninja just got all of their swords from Korean (joke)-

Not all Korean swords were straight. Many were, particularly in the southeast and north, where Chinese influence was heavier. But quite a few early swords in the southwest (oddly, the side away from Japan) were curved due to a marginal Japanese cultural influence there.

Over time, as sword making skills were borrowed, many Korean swords became curved to meet Japanese demand. But again, not all became curved.

It should be noted as well that there are no formal distinctions in Korean swordsmithing: some other forums state there were distinctions between the do, gom, etc., but there's no historical basis for it. They were (and there still are) great swordsmiths, but for some reason they never got into the marketing subleties you find with the Japanese blades.

There. That's more than anyone wanted to know.
 
Maybe the ninja had time machines and they used them to come to our time to buy "ninja swords"..

Hmmmm
 
Perhaps, since the ninjas in their 'sneaky' underhanded methods of assassination were frowned upon as lowly cowards (despite their skills), they were reputed to use straight swords, ala Korean.
Having had a Japanese girlfriend ( :mad: :mad: :grumpy: :eek: !!! but very...umm....'good') and having spoken to other Orientals, the subject of an Oriental Hierarchy arose. Each nationality it seems, with themselves at the top, downward classes the others with their most loathed group at the bottom. This group tends to be seen as genetically inferior and capable of all manner of uncivilized behaviors including, but not limited to, eating dogs, torture, stupidity, lying, cheating, thievery, not changing underwear regularly and failing to signal a turn.
Hence: Ninjas are lowly. Koreans are lowly. Koreans use straight swords, therefore ninjas use straight swords.
Did I lose anyone?
:confused:
 
Yes, Japanese and Koreans don't get along, but I don't think that's why the image of ninja with straight swords arose. In movies symbolism and easy character identification is very important. If the audience were presented with "historical" ninja, there would have to be tons of context thrown in just so they could understand who the characters are supposed to be. Your movie would be boring, and 6 hours long. A guy in black pyjamas and a straight sword is much easier to stereotype, he looks "evil", and there's no mistaking him for a samurai.
 
OMEGA DOOM said:
im looking for a good Ninja Sword

for like home combat :D



:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

I just realized the largest thing in my apartment for home defense is my MMHW Medium Shasqua. I have several large Bowies and tomahawks plus a few walking sticks, but if someone came in my apartment uninvited, I'd prefer to greet him with my Shasqua. Man I need to get my .45 out of layaway.

By the way, great information guys...

Thanks, Kenneth
 
Great discussions from small minded questions do grow. OMEGA was good for somethi... :eek:
 
bithabus said:
A guy in black pyjamas and a straight sword is much easier to stereotype, he looks "evil", and there's no mistaking him for a samurai.

Well the tactic certainly did work to promote one misconception--that the so-called "ninja" and samurai were somehow exclusive "classes". This has been taken to the extreme of ninja and samurai being bitter enemies.

The first mistake always seems to be identifying the job and idea of "ninja", which is then followed by drawing up some kind of social grouping or classification for them. THEN, you combine the two and suddenly they need to be the nemesis or otherwise oppositional concept to the (also ill-perceived) samurai class.

I wish I could erase that word and everyone's conceptions about it being "sneaky" or "dark" or "evil" or "honorable" or anything. Unfortunately it's not gonna go away.
 
Watchful said:
They were (and there still are) great swordsmiths, but for some reason they never got into the marketing subleties you find with the Japanese blades.
I believe that was due to the Koreans spurning martial arts when they accepted confucianism as their main belief.

Oh yeah, I also read that much of the code of the samurai were adopted from the elite warriors (and renaissance men, believe it or not--they were not just warriors but pursued endeavors such as poetry) called the Hwarang, from the Shilla era, I think. Their martial art had two divisions of application, "the way of the true sword" which emphasized chivary at all costs, and "the way of darkness" who had a Machiavellian belief that the only true honor is in the outcome. This second group were the practitioners of espionage and counter-espionage during wars. There was an elite group of fighters, called the Sul Sa which practiced these sort of tactics. These guys were crazy. They studied camoflage, infiltration/exfiltration, stalking, stealth, and fast movements.

Perhaps the Sul Sa were an influence for ninjas as the Hwarang inspired the samurai... :confused:
 
There's a whole 'nuther bunch of threads in the archives on that very subject. Search for Echanis, a name sure to be familar to many here. Much about Hwarang history is badly recorded, and much of it has been a substantial 20th Century revision to promote particular associations. I reference some excellent clarifications by Mr. Bob Duggan in this forum archive as well as his own site, hwarang.org.

The term Ch'ongdo (which really means pure-way) does indeed date back to about the 7th century as a code construct; the second term--Amja--really goes back to the late 70s, early 80s, I believe, and is more of a marketing tie-in to the then-wildly-popular Ninja craze. A few role-playing games only helped confused the issue further.

There is surprisingly little historical evidence for the Sulsa, a name which simply means "technique master," and is also the historical rank of major general, although certainly Koreans have used special operatives all throughout history... like virtually every organized society.

I can't believe how long this thread is getting.
 
So, Bigfoo7431 (sounds like a bad opening line from cheap movie)...
You're basically comparing the samurai to the military/standing army and the ninja to a Special Ops Operator, like a SEAL.
 
twisted bits said:
You're basically comparing the samurai to the military/standing army and the ninja to a Special Ops Operator, like a SEAL.
That's definitely how popular media have tended to portray them, I think. I'm in general agreement with everyone here that (a) the actual history is considerably different, and (b) the actual history is considerably more interesting.

I'm not actually well-versed in Japanese history, but have dim recollections that others will correct shortly.

The samurai of course were numerous standing armies (plural); attempts at unification weren't terribly successful. Each warlord has his own army (if he was lucky), and in many respects this was much more like organized crime turf wars than national defense! This guy had 1,000 samurai, that guy had a couple hundred, etc.

The samurai (bushi) used many 'tools,' among which was a generic term "ninjutsu." This basically was a category of strategies, like espionage. Some samurai specialized in stealth techniques, spying, and general recon work for the greater purposes of his warlord.

Over time, some individuals became extremely adept at this, and these techniques were recorded and held as privileged knowledge. Some probably free-lanced, others were in service to their warlord exclusively. Spec Ops? Sort of... but more like "Toshiro's got a knack for climbing walls; let's use him to open the gate."

The modern concept of "ninpo" has taken these techniques and made it a specialized art form. It's more organized, categorized, and formalized, but overall it's quite a modern system with no ancient *formal* predecessors.

On the complete other hand, as we've read above, modern comic book and movie writers, toy manufacturers, etc., have reinvented the Ninja from interesting historical perspective to the black-clad cat burglar assassin-types, and even had stories of samurai versus ninja wars, as if they were two invading species with a long-standing hatred.
 
Ninja were spies, assassins, and covert operatives right? So likely they will have some form of concealed weapons that they may or may not carry all the time. At the same time, they would blend in, thus, many were samurai, farmers, servants, etc. Certainly samurai and ninja weren't the highly divided and mutually aggressive groups mass media portrays them as. That would be stupid - how to be a spy if you spent all your time being blatantly different and carving up samurai? For that matter, how the hell do you do your work when you have a frisbee stuck in your throat?

Seriously though, the shinobigatana or ninja-to etc. is a subject of much controversy. Some say it's a wakizashi length blade but with fittings for a katana (including the full-length saya) as mentioned earlier. The ninja sword or ninja-to we see today are bunk and crap. However, there is the popularization of the ninja, from mediocre accounts and surmise during the Tokugawa era, etc, at which point less curved (but usually still curved) and shorter katana were becoming popular. Very vague and likely not true correlations there. There is some discussion in Hatsumi's books.

As to the black tights or whatever, weren't those the uniforms for the theatrical assistants to blend in with the backdrops?

As to the ninjutsu, there are several schools, notably the Bunjinkan, that integrate what is believed to be the historical martial skills, including ninjutsu, taijutsu, and of course kenjutsu, among others. How proficient each particular ryu or army or whatever were is beyond my ken. If you wish to know more I highly recommend talking to Dale Seago over at SFI.
 
If you wanna play with a sword (be careful!), I would suggest an el cheapo Bud K POS that you can drop about 50 to 100 bucks on and get it out of your system. Back when I was a mall ninja (terrible, terrible, hopefully got over that by now) I got the hots for a Bud K "Ninja Sword" with all of the crap like a breathing tube, knives and spear head, and you could turn the scabbard into a spear. All BS, but at least I only dropped 75 on it! I can't even give it away right now. Just be careful if you decide to attack trees or whatever, I did the same thing with mine (I was only 19 okay!), and that POS came back at me and almost knocked me out!
 
You can get cheap "swords" for around $10.00 if you shop around at places like eknifeworks.com or Bud K but I strongly advise against it. I don't have the link but there is a "popular" video of a guy from some home shopping show breaking a sword and cutting himself with the broken blade while trying to chop a table. :eek: :rolleyes:
 
Benjamin Liu said:
You can get cheap "swords" for around $10.00 if you shop around at places like eknifeworks.com or Bud K but I strongly advise against it. I don't have the link but there is a "popular" video of a guy from some home shopping show breaking a sword and cutting himself with the broken blade while trying to chop a table. :eek: :rolleyes:

Actually he was smacking the back of the sword on the table to *ahem* demonstrate the sturdiness of the sword. A lot of people think he deserved it :D - almost all the products he hawked sucked badly. Here are various mirror links: http://www.ebaumsworld.com/katanaslip.html
http://www.atar.com/sword.mpa

I think there was someone on SFI who emailed the folks and apparently he didn't get hurt badly, if at all, and that he was acting on the screen. Whether this is true.... still Odel (the guy who says emergency surgery may be necessary) is great.

Oh and the clip was cut off before he came back onto stage, fine as can be - selective editing :D.
 
Pause the video and advance it frame by frame right as he breaks the tip off, then watch his facial expression change as he realizes what he's done and what's going to happen. Definitely not an act.
 
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