Finally broke down and ordered a Edge on Up Tester. What should I test?

Diemaker said:
You do have the tools with the BESS tester. Your higher scores are evidence that something isn't right, and diamond loaded strops are good at creating foil burrs, ref Science of Sharp for this. A microscope would give more information about this, with the higher the magnification the more information it will give, rabbit hole, but you don't have to have it to try to figure out what the problem is. Science of Sharp also talks about using Mothers Mag Wheel Polish on strops because it uses aluminum oxide as the abrasive. There are situations where diamond stropping works well, but most often loading your strops with aluminum oxide will work better at lowering your BESS scores in my experience. Not once in years of testing this ha a diamond loaded strop worked better than aluminum oxide, even on Maxamet.

I watched that video and disagree with much of what he says, and did comment that it looked like he was over stropping his edges, severely convexing the apex. He would be better served with a stiffer strop than leather if he is going to strop so much. Keep in mind you are powered sharpening and stropping, the higher surface speed makes coarser abrasives leave a much finer finish than the slower speed of doing it manually.
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Help me understand what you think is happening.

You state that you think I'm getting foil burrs from using diamond in stropping process and that this is leading to lower BESS scores.

Q: Wouldn't lower BESS scores also occur if the burr were truly being removed? If so, then how do you figure out what's what without a microscope?

I guess ultimately I'll find out if my own knives need to be sharpened sooner.

FYI: I haven't posted all of my testing, but I've done a fair amount. I've gone through all 120 clips (20 that came with the tester and the additional 100 I added).

My results so far suggested to me like I wasn't getting all the burr removed with just one pass using the felt belt. Overall, my BESS scores dropped after using the felt belt with diamond compound vs. no strop. Then, when using one additional pass, the results dropped a bit more. When I used 5 additional passes, the test scores went up.

That suggests to me that:
a. the initial process was not effective at removing all of the burr after only one pass...an additional pass lowered the test score;
b. after seeing test scores increase with 5 additional passes, it feels to me as though the diamond in the felt is causing uneven wear that is no longer removing the burr or polishing...it's actually damaging the apex. Too much of a good thing??? Or, just crappy technique from me? or some combination of both? Donno.

When I started this process, I was just going buck willy and trying a bunch of different things. It is SO COOL to get objective results!

I'm looking forward to doing more tests once the new test media arrives. I will use more controlled tests and I will figure this out!

Bruce
 
bdaabat said:
I don't know. You may be right about creating a foil burr. I don't have the tools to be able to tell.

That second statement doesn't fit with what I've seen from Outdoors55 (assuming he's posting accurate info). He shows diamond emulsions in his stropping process effectively remove the burr.

He states that after doing all of these experiments, he no longer uses anything but diamond for deburring. If the mods allow, here's the link to his latest video with the video evidence of burr removal from using diamond emulsions in his stropping process.

Now the question you raised for me is, am I getting good burr removal with my process? Donno. Like I said, I don't have the tools to be able to tell definitively. I can't see a burr using a 12x magnifier, but that doesn't mean there isn't one there.

Bruce
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A simple process for me is, grind with your grit of choice, move on to stropping. I use an aluminum oxide stropping compound on a leather 1x30 for most knives. Honestly, unless your polishing, that's all you probably need to do to remove the burr. Supersteels I hit with diamonds.

I was surprised at some results on the Bess when I first got it, but little by little the Bess numbers kept getting smaller. The biggest hurdle was my technique...

Good luck, you'll be at 120 in no time!
(70 is the goal ;-) )
Al
 
bdaabat said:
Help me understand what you think is happening.

You state that you think I'm getting foil burrs from using diamond in stropping process and that this is leading to lower BESS scores.

Q: Wouldn't lower BESS scores also occur if the burr were truly being removed? If so, then how do you figure out what's what without a microscope?

I guess ultimately I'll find out if my own knives need to be sharpened sooner.

FYI: I haven't posted all of my testing, but I've done a fair amount. I've gone through all 120 clips (20 that came with the tester and the additional 100 I added).

My results so far suggested to me like I wasn't getting all the burr removed with just one pass using the felt belt. Overall, my BESS scores dropped after using the felt belt with diamond compound vs. no strop. Then, when using one additional pass, the results dropped a bit more. When I used 5 additional passes, the test scores went up.

That suggests to me that:
a. the initial process was not effective at removing all of the burr after only one pass...an additional pass lowered the test score;
b. after seeing test scores increase with 5 additional passes, it feels to me as though the diamond in the felt is causing uneven wear that is no longer removing the burr or polishing...it's actually damaging the apex. Too much of a good thing??? Or, just crappy technique from me? or some combination of both? Donno.

When I started this process, I was just going buck willy and trying a bunch of different things. It is SO COOL to get objective results!

I'm looking forward to doing more tests once the new test media arrives. I will use more controlled tests and I will figure this out!

Bruce
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I think the higher BESS scores are from foil burrs, lower BESS scores would be expected if you used aluminum oxide, on leather, instead.

I like to photograph my edges with my microscope where they cut the BESS filament. If you see a scallop in the apex where it cut the filament then that indicates a foil burr. I can only magnify to 250x so am a bit limited, compared to what is possible with an optical microscope.

Much of science is trying to figure out what is happening with the least amount of information. The BESS tester will give you plenty, the microscope is good for backing it up.

When your scores started to go up with additional passes my experience is that you are convexing the apex with a strop that is too soft for the pressure and abrasive. I think it really changes the angle in the last .01" of the apex. Looking under the microscope I have noticed the bevel getting much shorter when I stropped too much with leather and diamond, the combo really takes a lot of the apex off with too much stropping. Soft white aluminum oxide is much less aggressive than diamonds so it doesn't take the metal off nearly as fast, so is much safer to use. It also doesn't like to create foil burrs, so is better for deburring. You really need to try some, and a light touch.

180-165 is getting there, but 100-120 is certainly doable with what you have. 70 and lower and you can be content that there isn't much left, and I agree is the goal with 15dps and good steel.
 
Diemaker is spot on, occasionally I use a marker so I test a specific area. I sometimes mark all over knives to identify areas that need attention.
Part of the issue I was having when I started was what angles to strop at. I get the best results when looking down at the knife parallel to the stropping belt, I angle the edge toward the belt until I barely see the bevel reflecting the light mounted above it. Too much reflection and you’re going to round the apex, if you don’t see the bevel, you’re too shallow and rounding the shoulders. I get the best results stropping parallel to the bevel with the belt sander.

If I am using the Tormek to strop, I add anywhere from the exact angle to +2 degrees depending on the steel. I most definitely prefer grinding on a Tormek vs the belt sander. For me, I think it generates a much more attractive and professional looking bevel. Takes longer, but no heat, precise.
 
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D Diemaker : thanks for pointing me to Science of Sharp. What a cool site!

As with most things, the more I learn, the more questions I have and the more I realize I don't know squat.

I have no idea how to translate the information from SoS. He's doing some amazing things! And, he's using totally different techniques, totally different tools, and using them on totally different blades that are intended for totally different purposes. What do his results mean for me? No idea. But, I will be trying/testing some white compound shortly!

What I know for certain:
I'm more comfortable right now efficiently getting good, functional edges using a belt grinder compared to me using sharpening stones.
Getting the BESS tester was the correct call for me to help move my sharpening skills forward.
I'm excited to continue doing tests! My goal is to find a process that works REALLY well to efficiently create excellent edges for my knives and for my customers knives.
I'm really thankful I don't have to worry about the potential for razor burn on the carrot I'm cutting. :cool:

Bruce
 
Bruce,
If you haven't read "Knife Deburring" by the late great Vadim Karichuck from Australian Knife Grinders. You may find answers or reasons for specific questions in this book. This book is geared for the power sharpener.
I Highly recommend this read.
 
bdaabat said:
G Gottagofishn Thanks for the recommendation! Just grabbed the Kindle version!

Bruce
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Try not to get hung up on the progression’s of stepped down abrasives. Vadim sometimes used several paper wheels in addition to rock hard felt wheels with progressively smaller mu emulsions. Although stepping down in microns may be the most effective way to go about it, it doesn’t seem to be necessary as 100 or below is routine with a basic setup. All the different wheels wasn’t practical for the space in my tiny little shop, and expensive. Maybe there’s some electron microscope evidence somewhere showing why? Haven’t seen anything like that in regards to power stropping although Vadim did give his reasoning in the book.
Al
 
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