Finger Choils and Handle Design

Eli Chaps

Eli Chaps

Joined
Apr 20, 2018
Messages
4,458
I didn't want to muck up the "no choil Shaman" post any further with a generic discussion so just starting a new thread.

In that thread I mentioned my general dislike for finger choils but that isn't completely accurate. While I do tend see them as lost blade, I also understand the design intricacies and when you look at a lot of knives out there, the tangs are almost as long as a choil would be.

My issue is more specifically, an overall handle design that makes the use of the choil almost mandatory for a comfortable grip. I absolutely love the Manix 2 and find I can use it equally well with or without the choil. So in that case, I don't mind them at all.

So maybe my "issue" is more with a neutral handle design than the choil itself. I'd really like to see more options without the handle bumps.

I'm really looking forward to the new Leaf Jumper. My only concern is it looks a bit Stretch 2-ish. As much as that is a great knife for some reason it always pressed down on my middle knuckle weird and I just never got comfortable with it. But still, excited for it to come out and give it a spin!
 
Eli Chaps said:
I didn't want to muck up the "no choil Shaman" post any further with a generic discussion so just starting a new thread.

In that thread I mentioned my general dislike for finger choils but that isn't completely accurate. While I do tend see them as lost blade, I also understand the design intricacies and when you look at a lot of knives out there, the tangs are almost as long as a choil would be.

My issue is more specifically, an overall handle design that makes the use of the choil almost mandatory for a comfortable grip. I absolutely love the Manix 2 and find I can use it equally well with or without the choil. So in that case, I don't mind them at all.

So maybe my "issue" is more with a neutral handle design than the choil itself. I'd really like to see more options without the handle bumps.

I'm really looking forward to the new Leaf Jumper. My only concern is it looks a bit Stretch 2-ish. As much as that is a great knife for some reason it always pressed down on my middle knuckle weird and I just never got comfortable with it. But still, excited for it to come out and give it a spin!
Click to expand...

I'm typically not a fan of choils myself. A finger choil that's functional, won't cut you, AND comfortable, is a hard thing to pull off. Like you, the Manix 2 is one of those few knives for me, that feel natural using the finger choil. In a deep grip. 98% of the other time, I never use the choil on any of my other knives.
 
Hi Eli,

Designing a long term successful knife is often more difficult than it might appear. Your question is a good one and I'm interested to follow. We drew up a Shaman without a finger choil and it really is a completely different knife. I will play with mods to see if I can make it work well and be safe.

sal
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi Eli,

Designing a long term successful knife is often more difficult than it might appear. Your question is a good one and I'm interested to follow. We drew up a Shaman without a finger choil and it really is a completely different knife. I will play with mods to see if I can make it work well and be safe.

sal
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Thank you Sal. For the record, in my opinion, you're still the best in the business. :thumbsup:
 
Sal Glesser said:
Hi Eli,

Designing a long term successful knife is often more difficult than it might appear. Your question is a good one and I'm interested to follow. We drew up a Shaman without a finger choil and it really is a completely different knife. I will play with mods to see if I can make it work well and be safe.

sal
Click to expand...

How do you feel about the idea of a no choil blade being built around the PM2 instead of the Shaman?

SubMicron said:
For the record, I'm very happy with the existing designs of the Shaman and PM2.

Because this topic seems to be fun, I took a PM2 and outlined the profile on paper, shown below.

I then erased the choil, took the FFG almost all the way back to the handle, and drew the mini ricasso. As you can see below, I expanded on the idea with two more drawings.

Obviously the G10 would have to get shaped a little differently around the shoulder of the handle. This moves finger location forward which then affects how your hand rides the center hump... so for now I set all that aside and focused on the blade.

From the point where the stop pin touches while closed, there would just be a small plateau to form the mini ricasso.

View attachment 1339591

Like I said, I traced the PM2 first. When I redrew it, shown in the middle, I was very happy with the profile. It reminded me of the blade profile of my Manix 2, just a little bit less tall.

In order to achieve a taller blade, I just redrew it again, but taller on top. I think on that one, the thumb hole could be just a little smaller then what I drew.
Click to expand...
 
Eli Chaps said:
I think Lance's Siren looks awesome!
Click to expand...

I want to like the Siren, really bad, I like how it looks, and I like that it was designed by a fisherman.

The only drawback for me, and it only comes down to personal preference, but for me and with how I operate a back lock, I absolutely want a ricasso on one. Eric got bit by it at Shot Show, I'll do exactly the same thing and I'll do it more than once.

Not everyone needs or wants the same things in a backlock, or with any lock. The Siren definitely seems like it's a great knife, it's just not for me.

The compression lock and also the BB lock would give me the level of safety that I feel I need for one handed opening and closing without a choil being in place.

Fundamentally, that's the difference.
 
Eli Chaps said:
I didn't want to muck up the "no choil Shaman" post any further with a generic discussion so just starting a new thread.

In that thread I mentioned my general dislike for finger choils but that isn't completely accurate. While I do tend see them as lost blade, I also understand the design intricacies and when you look at a lot of knives out there, the tangs are almost as long as a choil would be.

My issue is more specifically, an overall handle design that makes the use of the choil almost mandatory for a comfortable grip. I absolutely love the Manix 2 and find I can use it equally well with or without the choil. So in that case, I don't mind them at all.

So maybe my "issue" is more with a neutral handle design than the choil itself. I'd really like to see more options without the handle bumps.

I'm really looking forward to the new Leaf Jumper. My only concern is it looks a bit Stretch 2-ish. As much as that is a great knife for some reason it always pressed down on my middle knuckle weird and I just never got comfortable with it. But still, excited for it to come out and give it a spin!
Click to expand...
I can’t remember ever wanting a choil on a knife, but do see where it would be an ok thing for skinning. I know people say it helps when doing “delicate“ work, but I’ve never understood exactly what they were referring to.
I agree with you about the Manix 2. It’s seems to work well with a choil. I have very large hands and it allows me to use the knife comfortably with a full grip. Great design. Superior work knife for my needs.
I would like to see Spyderco make more knives without choils, and lanyard holes, but people seem to like them.
 
GB940Rookie said:
I can’t remember ever wanting a choil on a knife, but do see where it would be an ok thing for skinning. I know people say it helps when doing “delicate“ work, but I’ve never understood exactly what they were referring to.
I agree with you about the Manix 2. It’s seems to work well with a choil. I have very large hands and it allows me to use the knife comfortably with a full grip. Great design. Superior work knife for my needs.
I would like to see Spyderco make more knives without choils, and lanyard holes, but people seem to like them.
Click to expand...

About the only time I use a choil is when I'm really bearing down. For delicate stuff, I think pinching the blade and riding the spine with my index finger is much better.
 
I'm so sick of the Lego block mentality. There are so many models. Plenty choilless. I have a Police in my pocket now.

I see great models dying with this squiky wheel pandering.

Go bye a choilless model and stop mudying the waters.

Spyderco please stop pandering to the squeaky wheel.
 
5-by-5 said:
I'm so sick of the Lego block mentality. There are so many models. Plenty choilless. I have a Police in my pocket now.

I see great models dying with this squiky wheel pandering.

Go bye a choilless model and stop mudying the waters.

Spyderco please stop pandering to the squeaky wheel.
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Relax friend. In no way do I want any models to go away or see existing models redesigned into something they didn't start out to be. And to be clear, internet discussion is probably a pretty small influencer on knife production and designs than actual sales. So I'd say Spyderco knows exactly what their customer base wants.I just asked for some more options without the need to use the choil to have a comfortable grip.

See, something for everyone. :)
 
I guarantee we're driving him nuts. Sal is a traditional knife designer. The atmosphere now is Legos.

I want this and that with this.
 
5-by-5 said:
I guarantee we're driving him nuts. Sal is a traditional knife designer. The atmosphere now is Legos.

I want this and that with this.
Click to expand...

Sal has been doing the internet for a looooong time. He knows exactly what he is doing. I used to spend a lot of time on his own forum and if you aren't familiar with it, let me tell ya, there's an almost endless stream of people complaining about every little thing and often without any valid basis. Not to mention the YouTube experts that get the community all stirred up about non-issues. Now, you'd think that stuff would eventually drive Sal nuts, but true to his character, he takes it all in stride with kindness and patience.

But threads discussing design desires or questions, I've always found that he seems to enjoy them. Maybe he doesn't always like answering the same thing for the ten millionth time, but I think he just realizes that for the poster, it's their first time. I saw some cool stuff get done because of threads like these. The Manix 2 re-design, the PM2, and many more examples.

Just because some of us say we want something, doesn't mean that Eric calls the factory and brings production to a halt pending re-designs. It's gonna be okay. :)
 
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SubMicron said:
Well, that's what happens when you make products that people are enthusiastic about.

I'd be surprised if the topic was under his skin, even the slightest.
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He clearly showed intrigue. So I'm wrong. I've projected my frustration.
There's no way he doesn't feel frustration for ignorance and my Lego analogy.
 
Enthusiastic is not the same as demeaning a product because it's not more like Benchmade or POS CRK.
 
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