Fire and keeping warm

C

coote

Joined
Apr 3, 2006
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It doesn't get very cold in my part of the world compared to how cold things can get. But it can still be cold enough to cause misery or even death.

I recently went to stay on some family land on a relatively remote island. When I'm there I mostly stay in a crude hut at one end of the property. My brother has an old house with a decent fireplace and electricity which is generated on the site.

It is the middle of winter here. I was prepared for a normal winter's day, but it seemed to get colder. Often the weather is cold and still, but now it was cold with a strong wind and driving rain.

I had been hunting some distance from camp and I got caught in the rain. The rain had not featured in the weather forecast that I'd seen. I was safe enough, and I headed back to camp to spend the day reading in the small cooking/utility hut. I had firewood stored in the hut, along with matches, lighters, paper, candles and flammable liquids to use if necessary.

I've lit a number of fires using a true flint and steel, a bow drill, a ferrocerium rod and of course conventional lighters and matches. I guess you could say that I am relatively experienced in firelighting.

Well....it had rained on and off for quite a while and everything seemed to be a bit damp. It took me an embarrassingly long time to get a fire going indoors. I hung my damp jacket to dry above the fire, got on some old woollen pullovers and a jacket that I'd stored at the hut, and hunkered down in a chair to warm up. I had the fire going all day and I could not get the temperature inside the hut above 10 degrees celcius.... that is 10 degrees above freezing (say 44 degrees F).

Thinking about how enthusiastic we've all got at times discussing firelighting methods, and maybe how confident we are that we could light a fire to keep warm in any circumstances....I've thought about how difficult it really is to get a fire going when you really need one.

Sure... ferrocerium rods are a great thing to carry. I own several. But I think that the focus should perhaps be more on warm clothing and some sort of a waterproof shelter. A tent is excellent, but maybe a decent light poncho would suffice.

And if there is a fire to be lit in unpleasant circumstances, then a decent axe and some sort of a reliable flame-producing method are going to probably be the best things to have with you.

Maybe people whose extreme conditions generally mean snow are better off than those whose worst weather involves heavy, icy rain.

Anyway, it is all sobering food for thought. Anybody got any thoughts on lighting fires in wet conditions?

Best wishes.... Coote.
 
One thought: I find that the extra edge you can get from having some magnesium shavings to use with your ferrocerium rod is a great comfort--just a little more margin for error if you're having trouble getting bone-dry tinder. That's why I like the slim ferro-rod-in-magnesium-block varieties for my (and my family's) kits. Just my two cents.

But I agree with your basic premise: even if you're great at it, getting a fire going well enough to warm you up is a lot more effort than just putting on a jacket, etc., and there is therefore more that can go wrong and keep you from succeeding. Hence, it's nice not to have to rely overmuch on firemaking at the expense of just keeping warm.

Good insight, Coote.
 
I recall reading somewhere that more people in outdoor/survival situations die from hypothermia--excluding by water immersion--when the temperature is in fact above the freezing mark than when the temperature is below it. Perhaps that is because when people know to expect mild to severe cold they over-stock themselves with warm, weatherproof clothing and shelter (I'm using Canadian terms of reference re: cold: ie: 0 C or 32 F isn't, relatively speaking, very cold; when the temps get into the negative double digits C, or single positive digits F, then you are getting into 'real' cold).
 
i carry ferro rods, and bic lighters, but the heavy go to fire starter is a highway flare, collect up a bunch of wood, light flare, pile wood on top, the intense heat and length of burn time will get wood dry and burning quickly. that said, i have only tried my flare a couple of times, and it works well, lights even when cold and wet. try out one and you will be sold on this, some folks saw the flare in half to make it shorter and fit in the pack. also if you tie a garbage bag into knots and light this it will again produce a drying heat for a long time to dry and light your wet wood. it is all about the amount of heat and length of time to dry out your wood.

alex
 
Lawlor69 said:
I recall reading somewhere that more people in outdoor/survival situations die from hypothermia--excluding by water immersion--when the temperature is in fact above the freezing mark than when the temperature is below it. Perhaps that is because when people know to expect mild to severe cold they over-stock themselves with warm, weatherproof clothing and shelter (I'm using Canadian terms of reference re: cold: ie: 0 C or 32 F isn't, relatively speaking, very cold; when the temps get into the negative double digits C, or single positive digits F, then you are getting into 'real' cold).
Click to expand...

I have read about divers that get lost, their ride out to sea loses them, and they are in 70 degree water. When they were found hours later they were both shivering uncontrolably and were on the verge of going into shock. Although it dosent seem cold at first the water being so much denser than air will wick away your body heat.
Wet clothes will kill you if you stop moving (from sweat) or if you don't have some way to get dry and warm.
 
Lawlor69 said:
I recall reading somewhere that more people in outdoor/survival situations die from hypothermia--excluding by water immersion--when the temperature is in fact above the freezing mark than when the temperature is below it. Perhaps that is because when people know to expect mild to severe cold they over-stock themselves with warm, weatherproof clothing and shelter (I'm using Canadian terms of reference re: cold: ie: 0 C or 32 F isn't, relatively speaking, very cold; when the temps get into the negative double digits C, or single positive digits F, then you are getting into 'real' cold).
Click to expand...

Likewise getting sweat soaked in subfreezing temperatures-- getting wet is really bad berries. I've lived in the Pacific NW all my life, where 40F and rainy is common October to March at sea level, let alone several thousand feet higher. The western slopes catch a lot more rain too. Where it might rain 60" a year at sea level, the foothills 25 miles east might get 100". Now, go out and climb hard and get sweat soaked in 40F wet weather-- there's nowhere for the sweat to go as the humidity might be 90% too. Wicking base layers and lots of vents are the rule. Factor a little wind and you can get yourself in trouble in a hurry. And don't ever, ever believe the weatherman: prepare for the seasonal range, not that morning's forecast.

Imagine finding dry wood and kindling! Anyway, that's why I carry several kinds of ingnition plus tinder in a waterproof container and some backup fuel tablets too. Extra clothing layers and some sort of quick shelter are really easy to pack and the best CYA. I prefer synthetic insulation over down for my climate. Space blankets are a worst case scenario backup and good for improvising. Poncho sheters and a bivy sack are great day hiking essentials, especially for fall/winter/spring hikes and hunting.
 
I do not get much practice at extremely wet weather, but like to
read about how to cope with it. The wet followed by cold seems
like a real killer also.

The flares seems like a real good idea.

Any thing can happen:
Wind, wet wood, shivering body, shaking or numb hands, water dirt
or silt in your lighter, injury so you cannot "pick and choose" wood,
total immersion in icy water.

A fur trapper in Alaska, used a paint can with oily rags. I have not
tried it, but it makes sense to me. Once the fire was going you could
seal the can for re-use later. You could replenish the oil and rags
with expedient material, if they started running low. I assume mostly
the oil burnt and the rags were mostly like having several wicks.

Can you start a fire after total immersion?

Can you start a fire with numb hands or wearing mittens?
(Can you even unpack and hold your fire equipment?)

I never tried these things.

BTW, even at 40 degrees F, radiant energy from a fire or stove could
dry your clothes, synthetic clothing and leather are a problem though.

Agree that clothing is more reliable than starting a fire, in many cases.
I used to hike above timberline a lot, so fire was not my primary thought.

Also if you are in a group, you delay the entire group, if a fire is needed
for you. Delays can kill. Each member of a group should have extra clothing.
More than once, I have lent my clothing to group members who were
getting real cold. That way the entire group could stay together, without
much delay. Starting (and using) a fire may cost an hour's time.
 
Coote warm Dry clothing and a poncho goes a long way even with a fire. The clothing goes without saying, the poncho Catches All the body heat and blocks the wind. I've stayed warm with just a candle under the poncho.. just can't fall asleep :eek: :D
 
Coote,
I know exactly what you are speakig of! I've experienced that same thing.
If I may share my theory, it is a humidity moisture issue.

Here on the East Coast, USA we can get very high humidity, typically it's during the summer, but, sometimes, we get cold air and moisture off the ocean out of the East or Northeast.
It's not below freezing, but it's Cold heavy damp air.

I think the humidity permeates fire material, condenses on it's surface, thus, making it more difficult to a get roaring fire going. Also, creating a draft during humid conditions (typically during Low barometric pressure) is much more difficult. Even if you hatchet your way into some dry wood, water can condense on it's surface before you "light your Bic".
Even lightig a fire in masonry chimney can be difficult, due to the negative draft effect.

That's my theory on this issue, and I know what you speak of, it sounds like your coniditions were ripe for Cool temps with high humidity. I'll bet it was a Low pressure cell moving in?

Regarding freezing temps: Humidity can limit the affects of temperatures, both cold and hot. With high humidity, it can only get but so warm. it's due to the fact the the water in the air cannot absorb any more heat, it becomes heat saturated. Same for Cold temps. When it's humid, it is more difficult to cool the air, as the moisture in the air tends to "hold" heat.

So, I do whole heartedly agree, the temperature range just above freezing, with some moderate to high humidity can be worse than below freezing with low humidity. It akes more heat calories (not food calories) to warm the air, and thus, yourself.

Would you rather stand in Cold rain at 35°F for a half hour, or while it's snowing at 31°F?

I would submit that we would feel much colder standing in that rain.
I've worked outside many times, in both of those conditions, Cold Rain has major Suckage factor.

Bottom line, as Coote explained, always expect a challenge when trying to light a survival fire, never be lulled into believing it's as easy as striking a match. It can sometimes be most frustrating, not just getting flame, but coaxing the fire into something/enough that will actually warm you.
 
Hi Coote, I was just wondering what happened to ya, figured you were just too busy trapping those adorable little possums of yours to bother with us internet folks.:D

I'm right there with you on the embarassingly long fire starting thing. I had gotten to the point that starting a fire with a firesteel was old hat, no problem..... under perfect conditions. As soon as it got humid or wet out, a blowtorch wouldn't do it, very frustrating.

SkunkWerX said:
Here on the East Coast, USA we can get very high humidity, typically it's during the summer, but, sometimes, we get cold air and moisture off the ocean out of the East or Northeast.
It's not below freezing, but it's Cold heavy damp air.

I think the humidity permeates fire material, condenses on it's surface, thus, making it more difficult to a get roaring fire going.
Click to expand...


So true, I've taken to carrying dryer lint with me when I know I'll need a fire, it just makes things so much easier.
 
I posted a few months ago about a high water canoe trip I made, my son swamped into a strainer and I had to do a mid stream recovery. What I didn't mention is that after me and my son made it to the bank soaking wet in overcast, 50 degree weather. I had a bic in my pocket that was soaked and a mag bar, I had a devil of a time getting a fire going in those conditions and we actually needed a fire. I made a post in another thread about practicing skills, not only do you need to practice in a safe environment you need to practice in the condition and with what you will have when the sheize does hit the ventilation device. Chris
 
A fire is a wonderful thing to be sure...and extremely important for drying out wet garments.
But a fire is not always necessary to survive cold weather....

I recall a winter field exercise in Yakima back in 1988:
We had spent all day on the move waging mock war and it was around 9:00pm (aka 2100 hours) when we finally got to our assembly site, and it was very cold too.
The wind was blowing, steady and bitter, down from Canada and making us all really cold and miserable.
Anyway, I finally got my "GP Tiny" snapped together and set up by about 10:00pm ("GP tiny" was Soldier slang back then for the little two-man canvas shelter-halves that snap together to make a tent) and I crawled in to my sleeping bag to get as much sleep as possible.
It took me awhile but I eventually warmed up enough to fall asleep.

When morning came I was nice and toasty in my sleeping bag when the dreaded "stand to" command was given (fire up the vehicles and man the perimeter just before the break of dawn and prepare for any attack).
I managed to get dressed inside my sleeping bag, putting off getting out in the cold for as long as possible.
I slept in my underwear and t-shirt so I would not sweat much during the night, but I always kept my BDUs inside my sleeping bag and used them as a pillow...gives your head a rest and keeps your clothes warm too.

After putting on my boots which were freezing cold (I should have put them in the sleeping bag too), I proceeded to unsnap my tiny tent and throw back the flaps.
But to my surprise the flaps did not budge.
I was baffled at first, but after trying again with more force I heard the crunching of ice and then I knew...
We had a light rain that night, followed by a drop in temp, and the tent was coated with a solid sheet of ice.
Even after I removed the guy-ropes and stakes it was still standing.
I had to use my E-tool (the little Army shovel...entrenching tool) to break the ice so I could fold the tent up and strap it to my ruck!

Ah, the good ol' days!:rolleyes:
 
I keep/store most of my serious gear in my truck under a hard bed cover. Part of that gear is a duffel bag with my winter kit which is there now in the heat of a SOCAL summer. If I get stuck in the mountains any time of year, there's enough in that duffel to get me through a blizzard -- wool underwear, poly- fleece, an insulated parka with a serious removable liner, wool socks, boots. . . you get the idea. I could start out with wet cotton jeans and change into a complete cold weather layered system. No fire required.
 
coote said:
But I think that the focus should perhaps be more on warm clothing and some sort of a waterproof shelter. A tent is excellent, but maybe a decent light poncho would suffice.

And if there is a fire to be lit in unpleasant circumstances, then a decent axe and some sort of a reliable flame-producing method are going to probably be the best things to have with you.
Click to expand...

I think this is a really good point you make. A pair of polypropylene socks, a balaclava and a synthetic base layer kept dry in ziploc bags can really make the difference when you're slipping into hypothermia. Add a big piece of plastic (tarp/poncho/etc) and you've got a great anti-hypothermia kit. The ability to make fire shouldn't be anyone's only solution to the problem of hypothermia. I first learned that simple lesson camping on the Olympic peninsula in the Pacific northwest. Having a fire doesn't necessarily mean you are going to be warm and dry.

The second point you make is really important too - being able to start a fire isn't the same as being able to fuel a fire. Whatever you carry to cut wood needs to be adequate - a kukri, a machete, a hatchet, axe, folding saw, etc. If you don't have a substantial wood cutting tool then you are relying on the good fortune of finding enough dry wood that can be collected by hand. If someone was going to drop me off from a helicopter in the middle of the wilderness and gave me a choice between taking either a 4 or 5 inch sheath knife or a hatchet, I'd choose the hatchet.

my .02
 
The last time I really needed a fire RIGHT NOW was back in January camping out with my brother. I had gotten pretty sweated up in my Gortex. We set up camp and it was about 18F (-8C?). I was getting a serious chill once I stopped moving. I used a trioxene barto get things going fast. I also had some dry clothes to change into.

I think that a reliable tinder such as a triox bar or road flare is essential when there is a possibility of cold wet conditions. In my case it was only my clothes that were wet, the forest was very dry, just a dusting of snow.

Here during rainy season the weather is fairly warm but everything is soaked through. You have to carry some form of long burning tinder to get things burning. I usually carry candles for this. Mac
 
For anyone that has not read it, check out " To light a fire " by Jack London it is a real eye opener !
When you are thinking about killing your dog so you can warm your hands up in it's stomach to get some movement back, you know it's serious !!!!
 
Shelter first, then fire, so the shelter reflects the heat of the fire, and protects the fire.

The better shelter you have, the less wood you have to burn to keep warm.

Its tricky though when you need a quick camp.
 
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