Fire and keeping warm

Guys

I know about having these firestarters with you, but in my neck of the woods, making open fires is illegal, even in winter time.

What I allways take with me is a gasoline stove, like a Optimus Hunter 8R or a Svea 123 Climer, Coleman Apex II etc etc I can heat myself with hot drinks, from inside, which is I think much more efficient and safe (have you seen Gore-tex burn?!?!

A stove is a realiable way of making a "fire" and warm yourself. But when the fuel is done......yes, I have to make an open fire.....(which I'm able to do, even in wet conditions). For starters I can take an Esbit cube, vaseline cottonballs, or charcloth. A Magblock as backup and 2 Bic lighters as second backup, and a ferro rod as third backup.

CZ
 
coote said:
But I think that the focus should perhaps be more on warm clothing and some sort of a waterproof shelter. A tent is excellent, but maybe a decent light poncho would suffice.
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My take on fire starting is that it is a most vital skill in a survival situation. A small fire starting kit consisting of the usual magnesium block and flint/mini Bic/waterproof matches/etc. is easily carried along on day hikes. It's also nice to have a fire to dry clothes that get wet, and to warm up.

However, in a planned event, like an overnight or multi-day camping trip, I've found it more convenient to bring along a sleeping bag that will keep me warm based on the weather and climate. I've used mine to sleep on many a night sans tent down to the teens F and found it toasty warm after I got the bag warmed up.

Just keep in mind that fires and nylon sleeping bags don't mix very well. If you have a good, warm bag, a camp fire isn't essential to stay warm. If a fire is needed for cooking, to dry wet clothes, to keep animals at bay, or just for tradition, then it's important to place distance between the bag and the fire to keep flying embers from burning holes in the bag.
 
Keep in mind that altitude plays a significant role in body temperature. High altitude temperature is different because there is a reduction in blood oxygen that circulates to keep extremities warm. It's what causes most altitude headaches. When I first started mountaineering it took me a couple of summits to realize that I was becoming cold too easily until I realized the cause. Your zipper thermometer will deceive you, especially if you have perspired too much. Keep moving around until you have dried a little, sucked up some more oxy, and added a layer or removed a wet one. Immediately sitting by a hurry-up little fire will make you colder fast. I've also been trapped by getting too cold (just a little farther...) so that my hands were of little use to use tools to build a fire- very frustrating (core temp felt OK but fingers almost useless). I knew better. :) Regards, ss.
 
A couple things that have not been mentioned yet,

1. Stay/get hydrated, especially important in extreme cold or high elevations, where water loss through respiration often goes unnoticed.

2. Candles are almost weightless, last about forever and are remarkeably waterproof. Once you have shelter from the elements the low steady flame they provide wil lignite even damp wood. Aside from anything else I will usually have at least one emergency type candle in a pocket of each of my jackets, sport and casual. Buy a pack of em and put one in each coat/jacket you own.
 
TDahlgren, I'm with you on the good of candles. My problem is that where I live candles (unless air-conditioned) are a liquid substance.
 
Coote, you make some excellent observations here. I just wish I could make a nice fire right now that would COOL ME OFF! It's the middle of a hot summer here. I'm near the coastline of the Gulf of Mexico, and the heat and humidity are pretty bad.

I just have to ask this: Have you ever used a sheep for tinder? :D

Considering that from what I hear they are New Zealand's "national animal" I couldn't help kidding you about that.
 
Nah Dr. Mudd, I've never used a sheep for tinder. Much better to cuddle up to one on a cold night :D

Seriously though, I have found wool to be an excellent choice of clothing fabric for the outdoors. I even heard the other day that it actually gives out heat when it becomes damp. It is also relatively fireproof compared to some modern fabrics. Dang, a tiny ember can make a hole right through my polarfleece clothing.

Thanks for all the perceptive and interesting comments.

Yep, I reckon that there was probably a big low pressure weather system settling in when I was experiencing the firelighting difficulties (around this time there was a big storm further north that involved flooding and 150 kph winds). And interesting that getting a fire to 'draw' in low pressure conditions should be mentioned. I know a guy who used to operate the kiln at a cement factory, and who is also a potter. He reckons that kilns work much better when the barometer is high.

I agree with the notion that a magnesium bar with a ferro rod attached is much better than just having a simple ferro fire lighter on its own. Sure, a plain ferro rod is no trouble to carry and it may well save the day....but when the sparks from your rod ignite those magnesium shavings, you get some serious firelighting heat.

Ponchos are excellent. The only troubles I have with them involve treading on them when I am climbing or working....and having the danged things blowing about in a big wind. I will sometimes wear a belt or tie a cord around the outside of the poncho to stop it blowing about so much. I like wearing one when fishing in the rain. I just spread it out over my legs and enjoy myself in my own cosy little 'mini tent'. It is great to wear a poncho while carrying a gun and a pack. The gun can be kept relatively dry (and out of view) under the poncho, and you can slip your pack on and off under the poncho without much trouble at all.

I recently made my own poncho from some parka nylon. The fabric width (off the roll) was really a bit too narrow, but I made the poncho anyway. I sewed the hood in place, then applied commercial waterproofing gunk to the seam. I think next time I make one I will try simply painting the seam with acrylic house paint... and I may even attempt to make the garment from an old tent that I might be able to get cheap at the local recycling centre. I wouldn't choose this particular poncho for a serious journey because it is too narrow, too thin and as yet hasn't proved itself. But it crams into a small space and is ideal to carry 'just in case'.

I once got caught in the rain, and I made a temporary personal protective 'roof' by slitting one side of a large plastic sack. I wore it like a cape and was grateful for it.

I have an acquaintance who liked to 'go bush' for a while. He carried his smoothbore flintlock gun and associated gear, an old ground down table knife, a flint and steel (the real thing, not ferrocerium), and very little else. Instead of flash boots he just wore sturdy sneakers. For a tent which served a second use as a raincoat, he carried the old plastic wrapper that came on a mattress.

Yeah.... I have been away from this site for a bit, and some of that time has been spent chasing possums. I've also been involved with helping my son do some archaeological work....and I've spent some time away in the Marlborough Sounds. Plus I've been spending some time at a few other sites. But I can't seem to avoid coming back here. Actually, what should be keeping me from the computer is a search for legitimate employment...and then the actual employment. Just haven't found the right thing yet......
 
Coote, one of our wilder western states is Wyoming, and it's known far and wide for the large numbers of sheep raised there, some of them really beautiful with light colored coats and nearly black faces. I've heard a lot of stories about those Wyoming boys who like to "cuddle" their sheep, too! :D I visited Wyoming about ten years ago, and the sheep jokes just abound there! I guess the longer a fellow is out in the hills, the more beautiful those sheep begin to look.
 
akennedy73 said:
A pair of polypropylene socks, a balaclava and a synthetic base layer kept dry in ziploc bags can really make the difference when you're slipping into hypothermia.
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I'm surprised clothing hasn't been brought up more in this thread. I have worn nothing but wool socks for the past 10 years. I haven't worn a pair of jeans in 8 years. Cotton is the worst material for all climates except the desert. In cold weather wool or synthetics should be the rule.

I always try to look at the ways you lose heat when choosing what to wear outside. Conduction, convection, radiation, evaporation. Usually convective heat loss and evaporation are the biggest dangers. It always helps to have good windproof layers and an extra layer in the winter, like a down jacket. If your exerting and sweating and then stop you will cool down rapidly. This is when you throw on the extra layer.

Also don't buy into the Gore-Tex hype. If it isn't raining it is probably overkill. Despite the claims Gore-Tex cannot release the amount of moisture your body puts out. Since Gore-Tex relies on physics to work you must have a significant temperature variance in order for it to "breath". So if your backpacking in the rain in 80 degree weather you'll get drenched by your sweat instead of the rain. If it is really cold out your better off with something windproof not waterproof. So far no one has really developed a clothing system that covers all the bases. Wouldn't it be nice to have clothing that stored your excess body heat and purified your sweat for drinking water?
 
A solid PVC poncho doesn't breath through the fabric, but because it can be loose-fitting and may hang over your pack, your clothes can breath quite well underneath.

I too prefer woolen socks.... all year round. Although I have been using some synthetic ones which seem to be very hard wearing. But if I am doing anything serious, my choice is wool even if I do make a hole through the heel of my socks rather quickly.

Must go....Baabara is calling me for dinner.
 
Just a couple thoughts to elaborate on my post.

Cool muscles perform better, so if your out in the winter don't wear clothing that makes you sweat. This will soak your insulation and create evaporative heat loss. It is better to keep your insulation dry and throw it on when you are not moving. The posts about hydration at altitude are very accurate as well. This could end up in an entirely new discussion about sleeping systems and such. But briefly, use a pee bottle to avoid getting out of your tent. Having a full bladder makes you colder. brew up some tea or my favorite hot jello to keep in the sleeping bag at night. but don't mix up the bottles!!! :barf:

Most of my experience has come from high altitude and winter mountaineering where getting cold can kill you quickly. When I worked at Rocky Mtn National Park a guy died on Longs Peak wearing jeans and a sweatshirt. They found him near the summit covered in an inch of ice.
 
Cool muscles perform better...
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Not to start an argument, but....
I don't know where you heard this, but I don't think that it's correct.

Cool muscles do not perform better.
In fact, atheletes will exercise and do "warm ups" during periods of inactivity in the process of a game because they don't want to cool down.
And one should never exercise or perform rigorous activity without first warming up.


...if your out in the winter don't wear clothing that makes you sweat.
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But I agree with this part.

It's a delicate balance...stay warmed up, but don't overdo it and start sweating.
 
allenC said:
Not to start an argument, but....
I don't know where you heard this, but I don't think that it's correct.

Cool muscles do not perform better..
Click to expand...

"cool" is a relative term. If your muscles overheat due to dehydration you start to get cramps. It is just like a car. Of course you let it warm up for a minute before driving and you change the fluids so it doesn't burn out. The body is a machine and the same rules apply.
 
If your in the Jungle were it rains a lot, inner tube is very very usefull, combined with feather sticks, and a good lighter.
The right clothing for the right envirement is essential.
 
Return of the J.D. said:
TDahlgren, I'm with you on the good of candles. My problem is that where I live candles (unless air-conditioned) are a liquid substance.
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Yeah, summer in the desert is a whole different thing. I'm on the High Plains,
where it is not so hot, but here are some ideas.

I have kept pink lady candles (Couglan) in my car in the summer, and they
milted slightly, but not enough to matter. Maybe you could keep some if
they were well insulated and next to a water bottle (serves as heat buffer).

Here's a chemical additive, for raising the melting point of wax: stearic acid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stearic_acid

You could keep them plastic-wrapped or in a form; for high temperatures,
wax candles do seem safer to store than other fuels.

I keep Fix-a-flat or equivalent, in my vehicles. They have discharged in
direct sunlight, but when I insulated them with old light-colored clothing,
they were just fine. Additionally, I later, put them in a cardboard box.
Gas line anti-freeze also goes in the box.
 
Sorry about the tangent ... but tell me about road flares.

Where do you buy a road flare? How big and heavy are they?

Apparently you can put one out and relight it?
 
The Mountaineers have a book out entitled HYPOTHERMIA, FROSTBITE, AND OTHER COLD INJURIES: Prevention, Survival, Rescue, and Treatment, 2nd Edition. It's by Gordon Giesbrecht, Ph.D., James A. Wilkerson, M.D. I've read it--it's an easy, fast read and has a lot of practical information. It's written by a doctor and a scientist nicknamed professor popsicle because he's done all these crazy experiments--on himself--to gauge the impact of cold on the body.
 
fnc said:
I do not get much practice at extremely wet weather, but like to
read about how to cope with it. The wet followed by cold seems
like a real killer also.

The flares seems like a real good idea.

Any thing can happen:
Wind, wet wood, shivering body, shaking or numb hands, water dirt
or silt in your lighter, injury so you cannot "pick and choose" wood,
total immersion in icy water.

A fur trapper in Alaska, used a paint can with oily rags. I have not
tried it, but it makes sense to me. Once the fire was going you could
seal the can for re-use later. You could replenish the oil and rags
with expedient material, if they started running low. I assume mostly
the oil burnt and the rags were mostly like having several wicks.

Can you start a fire after total immersion?

Can you start a fire with numb hands or wearing mittens?
(Can you even unpack and hold your fire equipment?)

I never tried these things.

BTW, even at 40 degrees F, radiant energy from a fire or stove could
dry your clothes, synthetic clothing and leather are a problem though.

Agree that clothing is more reliable than starting a fire, in many cases.
I used to hike above timberline a lot, so fire was not my primary thought.

Also if you are in a group, you delay the entire group, if a fire is needed
for you. Delays can kill. Each member of a group should have extra clothing.
More than once, I have lent my clothing to group members who were
getting real cold. That way the entire group could stay together, without
much delay. Starting (and using) a fire may cost an hour's time.
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The oily rags is kind of a version of vaseline cotton balls. I have a little bottle of alcohol hand cleaner with cotton balls and that works fast-- one spark and it's going.

I like flares as you can be pretty cold and stupid and get a fire going. The ol' falling in the icey water thing is one scenario that I prepare for and you are ver right to question what you can accomplish in that shape. If you've never been completely dunked in 35F water, you just can't understand what it does to your mobility, coordination and your thinking. Take about half your IQ and you're there. Yes that, means your brother-in-law would have a negative IQ :D

Imagine wandering around trying to find decent firewood in that shape-- I'll guarantee you won't be very picky. Now, flares are mechanical and the strikers can fall apart, so you still want a couple backups. If you do have a flare fail, you can still break it open and spark the innards. Watch your pinkies :)

One thing about synthetic clothing-- wet polyester base layers will dry from your body heat. Other layers can be wrung out and will dry very quickly. I agree you can't roast 'em like you can an old Pendelton shirt-- which I still have for winter stuff. A polyfill sleeping bag will dry from body heat if you ring it out and get in dry shelter. I wear silk weight polyester base layers with something like Powerstrech or fleece over that, with a wind shell. If I'm sitting still, then I might use down of really cold weather. I sweat too much to wear down on the move and I rarely would be in weather cold enough to need that kind of insulation on the move. It's when you stop that you get cold and chilled. Hot liquids, dry base layers and a big fat down sweater are great after slugging up a hill in cold rain. Ahh, hot java and the pitter patter on the tent .... :)
 
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