Fire and Shelter

[matthewdanger]

I have been thinking lately about how fire and shelter work together (or do not work together) in a survival or even a camping situation. Many of us carry ways to make fire and have the skills to create something like a debris shelter. But do we understand how they should be used together or if they should be used together? I am not sure that I did/do.

The questions that I have been rolling over in my head are: Are there circumstances where it is advantageous to have one and not the other? Should fire and shelter always be built as necessary for survival or as separate, independent items that have no bearing on the other? Is one almost always better than the other?

Based on my experience, it seems that shelter is far more important in most (maybe all) situations, at least for the places/climates that I am likely to find myself. This leads me to prioritize shelter and only after the shelter is built do I start thinking about how to introduce fire. I have found that with a properly constructed debris shelter that I can be quite comfortable all the way down into the 20's (F), but that is as low as I have tried it. I have also spent some almost unbearably cold nights next to a small fire with just a modicum of shelter. It takes quite a long time to build a shelter for cold weather and it seems to me that with limited time, the shelter is a more surefire way to survive colder temps.

Even in situations when it is cool but not cold, it seems someone might be better served spending most of their energy on shelter. Certainly it could be tempting to build a faster lean-to and then to have a small fire when it isn't bitter cold outside, but I have found that given the increased resistance to the elements (wind and rain especially) that an a-frame debris hut offers that it is almost universally better than a lean-to if it is cool. The debris hut doesn't have to take much more time (if any) than a lean-to and a fire.

Perhaps fire is worth the time just as a morale lifter. I would probably build one if I had the time and energy, but how necessary is it really and how do we best utilize it, prioritize it, and plan for it? Perhaps a lot depends on the location and the materials present.

I would love to hear your thoughts.

 

[JK Knives]

I believe shelter is more important, if for no other reason that it will keep you dry in rain or snowfall. Everyone knows that hypothermia is a killer, and staying dry is the first step in avoiding it. All that being said, I do think a fire is important, plus it gives a "comforting feeling" of being safe, and is a great morale booster.

 

[siguy]

There was a thread on shelter vs fire priorities not too long ago that generated a good bit of response. You might have luck searching for it.

I think that it largely depends on the circumstance: If you are moving every night to a new campsite, it would probably be best to find some sort of natural shelter and stay warm with a fire every night. If you are staying in one place for a few days or longer, it might be best to invest more time in a proper shelter (though building off of natural shelters will result in a better shelter overall just the same).

You might look at it as taking, say, 3 hours to build a shelter. For one night, that's quite an investment. For three nights, that's reduced to an average of only an hour per day spent on shelter-not too bad.

 

[kenk]

When watching these survival shows on TV (some great, others not so much) I've twice seen someone's campfire ignite their shelter (once on Survivorman and another on I Shouldn't be Alive).

I've often wondered about that when people try to build fires so close to their shelter. When camping I would never EVER setup my tent so close to the fire pit.

I tend to think of the shelter as protection from precipitation, dew, and wind first, and then for warmth second.

I do think a campfire brings a sense of calm.

I don't think the fire provides as much warmth as some think unless its a really big fire (which takes a LOT of firewood finding energy) and you're right on top of it. I find the fire-facing side gets warm, but the non-fire-facing side is quite cold.

Still, if I'm wet and cold a fire is way important. I tend to vote for the smaller ongoing fire and the better debris hut type shelter (think an insulated hole in something).

 

[siguy]

As long as it's not too windy, a space blanket makes a terrific reflector to bounce heat at your backside. The other night I was wishing I had brought a couple to act as a reflector on the back of the fire, and then a second behind us to keep our backs warm.

A fire can also provide a source of light if you end up needing to build your shelter after dark. Having somewhere to warm up while building your shelter is also nice on colder nights.

 

[Bobber]

Happy new year fellow members..
Have to say my shelter is very easy set up, I`m from Norway and up here it gets cold in the winter.
I don`t know if you`ve ever heard of something called "Jerven"... This is cind of a tarp with zippers on all sides,. You can get them either in regular or insulated versions.
Check them out at www.jerven.no (I don`t know if they have a site in english)
They have tested the insulated version in 5 fahrenheit and just crawled in there without a sleepingbag, and they got the temp up to 50 fahrenheit just by their own bodytemperature.
And the damn thing works like the add says, I know cause I`ve used them at wintermaneuvers with the army up here..
You can even heat them even more using only a candle placed in your tin-cup between your feet when you are sitting up..

 

[kgd]

Good thread Matthew,

I suppose these things all depend on circumstance. I guess it starts with at what point do you make the decision to bed down for the night. What gear and equipment do you have on you and how can you make both, fire and shelter, from what you have. Having a modicum of PSK contents makes both pretty simple. Just having the good heat sheet or couple of garbage bags will take a great deal of time off the building of a debris shelter.

I guess it also matters about the design of your shelter and how that is to work with fire. For example, Ray Mear's raised bed lean too is designed to work with fire. Admittedly, this may not be the best in high wind or where conditions (e.g. rain) will permit a fire or make keeping a fire going ideal. Likewise, a slightly larger shelter made easier with some plastic pieces can be greatly benefited in heat by a tea light candle/tin can.

I guess these are all things you have to decide at the time you decide its time to hunker down for the night. I don't really think there is an optimum solution to your question, but one of circumstances you find yourself in. Then again, I'm not trying to say the thread is pointless because I think you raising it makes us think about these things and giving it some thought beforehand is what really helps you out when the chips are down.

 

[kgd]

I don't think the fire provides as much warmth as some think unless its a really big fire (which takes a LOT of firewood finding energy) and you're right on top of it. I find the fire-facing side gets warm, but the non-fire-facing side is quite cold.

Hi kenk, this is the exact reason why you want to design your shelter to work with your fire instead of against it. Now tents are designed to work on their own at that is how they should be operated. They don't deal with stray sparks very well.

It is true that there is a risk of catching your shelter on fire. This is something you have to be aware of, but the payoff in terms of heat can be immense. The small fire's heat will bounce off the back walls of your shelter and keep you warm from most sides. The small fire is much easier to contain and less likely to catch your shelter on fire, and you've designed your shelter with materials, like green wood and bows nearest to the fire source to prevent such an occurrence. The small fire is less greedy on fuel and therefore you spend less time scavenging for wood. Cons on the small fire - fuel wood needs to be smaller and lasts less time so you feed it more often. That means staying away or sleeping in smaller intervals.

 

[RescueRiley]

I'll chime in on this, and say that allot of it is scenario dependent.. Sure in the classic survival priority list shelter is tops... However constructing a shelter of natural materials to the point where it can actually provide enough insulative warmth to keep you alive..can take a Long Time..I've spent quite a few nights in debris huts a few in winter.. the ones I spent where i did not have enough insulation material where some of the most miserable nights of my life..Fact is to make a weather proof warm shelter without the presence of a fire. can easily take 3-4 hours or more.. (time you may not have) if you are already wet or nightfall is upon you.

If weather is clear a body length fire with a reflectors 1 for the fire and 1 for you could keep you toasty warm through out the night. if you happen to have a poncho or space blanket to protect you from the moisture than even better..

If I had the time I'd bulid a shelter first.. if not than a fire.. sometimes survival is about compromise.. and warm and wet beats cold and wet any day.

As far as using fire and shelter in tandem, well obviously this is the ideal.. if time and cirumstances permit... I've had the best luck here using a body length fire with a reflector and a leanto.. however in order to milk the maximum amount of efficiency from this you need to be close (just slightly out of arms reah from the fire) whcih means if you have a good fire, you need to be real selective about your shelter material... Mylar burns instantly and will melt and adhere to your skin.. Dry materials may ignite.

It is this very reason I don't use fires in tandem with a debris shelter. I have used heated rocks however .. in closed debris hut a small pit in the foyer area filled with hot rocks can provide a good amount of warmth for up to about 4 hours... I find that warm rocks placed next to vascular areas of the body is about as effective but lasts about 3 hours.

... if time permits and the resources are avai I'd build a shelter and a fire, and use them smartly. if not I'd have to choose based on environmental conditions and upon my personal resources.

 

[abo4ster]

My take, and to sum some of the great comments above, don't get locked into I need to this or that as a priority.

Every situation is different ~ weather, geography, natural resources, your clothing, your gear, your abilities... Keep an open mind to take advantage of what is available. Heck, you may not have a choice.

Many wrestle with this (shelter vs. fire). I believe that is rooted in the fact, fire is the best the survival skill to have as it can do so much. But that doesn't mean you won't be in a scenario that warrants finding/making shelter only. Again, be open and ready to adapt.

As food for thought the next time you are 'out,' look at the environment you are in and ask yourself; what do I need to get 8 hours sleep a day? Chances are it will adjust what you carry in your kit. If you can hydrate and sleep, you got it made.

 

[sicily02]

RR right one wet and warm is better than wet and cold LOL.
Every situation is different, fall through some ice and a fire is going to be a real help then trying to build a shelter right at that time.

Normally it does NOT take that long to gather some wood and then light a fire.
15 minutes tops to find and gather some wood. an other 5 min. and you can have a fire started and going and melting snow for water or cooking some chow while you work on your shelter. Then you can have a nice bed of coals going by the time your shelter is done.

If it was 1 hour before sun down and I was lost. I would take that time to gather wood and build a fire ( for WARMTH and LIGHT) and then start on a shelter of some kind.

Making up a good shelter from the natural resources around you takes time. Unless you find a cave or a over hang of some kind that already offeres natural shelter.

Again only by getting out there and practicing this stuff will you get better at it and find out what really works.

Options are like weeds there are lots of them.

Bryan

 

[Rick Marchand]

Are there circumstances where it is advantageous to have one and not the other?

Of course.

Should fire and shelter always be built as necessary for survival or as separate, independent items that have no bearing on the other?

The situation dictates that.

Is one almost always better than the other?

Shelter usually prevails over fire.... USUALLY.




The variables are infinite. Do you have the ability to make fire? Do you have the ability to make shelter? Does the situation call for it? Can you make do without? These are all decisions that depend on time, temperature, material availability and physical ability. The most important tool is awareness, which comes from experience, IMO.

So get out there and experiment.



Rick

 

[d_filgate]

The general opinion so far seems to be "it depends on your situation".
Very good and sound assessment.

This is my first all natural debris shelter, constructed of only natural components,
and made when weather conditions were close to ideal for winter.
It took myself and my wife 4 hours of non-stop work to complete.

When the door to the shelter is put in place, it gets nice and warm and comfy inside.
If you had the time as others have mentioned, it's a great way to go.

If you are wet and need to get warm right away, constructing this type of
shelter could cost you your life. I would be trying to get a fire going first.

Like Mr. Magnussen has mentioned, the most important tool is awareness, which comes from experience,
which comes from getting out there and experimenting with different ways of doing things.

It's better to find these things out under safe and controlled situations rather
than having to "learn" it when your life depends on it.

 

[dextersp1]

As long as it's not too windy, a space blanket makes a terrific reflector to bounce heat at your backside. The other night I was wishing I had brought a couple to act as a reflector on the back of the fire, and then a second behind us to keep our backs warm.

A fire can also provide a source of light if you end up needing to build your shelter after dark. Having somewhere to warm up while building your shelter is also nice on colder nights.

http://www.rei.com/product/669629
The above should be part of everyone's pack - 3oz - large and strong.
There are so many products that are small and light weight that have double uses - large garbage bad - backpack rain cover and groundcloth - in an emergency.

 

[Bill Siegle]

If I have time, I want both but I would think by the time most people get to thinking or accepting that they are in a situation, it's probably getting close to being dark. With the loss of light you probably do not have time to get a shelter built and collect enough wood to burn all night. I took a winter survival course once and learned how a good shelter can really improve your odds of survival. In most situations, I would opt for shelter 1st

 

[paleojoe]

I agree, awareness is supreme.
That being said, shelter should be, or tends to be, the more immediate concern.
Climate issues can change this.

But most people think 'roof' when they consider shelter.
I have always said, 'shelter is both a roof and a blanket.'

With this, where does shelter start? The clothes on your body.
Clothing is the first step in sheltering from exposure.

Shelter is of the utmost of importance.



Many Survival Schools speak of the 'Sacred Four' in this order:
-Shelter
-Water
-Food
-Fire

 

[Gadgetaholic]

As mentioned - it all depends on the situation.

If I was wet from a fall in some water or being rained on, but it wasn't raining (anymore) and I could quickly and easily get a fire going but building a shelter would take much more time and effort - then I would get a fire going and dry out before building a shelter.

If I was well dressed for the weather/temperature but would need a shelter because it was going to be cold at night and if there was only a couple of hours of daylight left - then I would pull finger and get me a shelter built to keep me comfortable over night.

Depending on available materials and type of shelter I may look to incorporating a fire.

 

[NaturalWorld]

Great topic! Very situational, many instances/parallels of the application of shelter or fire to consider. Like many have said before, awareness is key.:thumbup:

Shelter gets the #1 spot, as I was taught. Environment, such as a thick forest canopy, can provide some shelter coverage. That being said, clothing is part of our shelter system, and you can potentially dress yourself or augment clothing (such as with debris) to the point of being comfortable/tolerable overnight at rest, but will pretty much have to layer down during activity. Something to mitigate the wind and rain (keep out the weather), and something to insulate for winter (keep in the warmth). Maybe a bit of a stretch, but the decision to sit on a pile of debris vs a cold rock, or setup camp in a clearing vs under an overhang, involves the concept of shelter.

Fires provide an external source of warmth, whether to dry off our first-line of shelter (clothing), or to help add some btu's to our own inner fire fueled by calories. Likewise 'Food' category shares play-time with 'Fire' in the so-called Sacred Order of 4, when temperature/energy drops--at least that's my reason behind a continual feast. Slickest setups I've seen with fire + shelter have been the tents with stove-jacks but lean-to and reflector is cozy and spacious if it's only just cold. I usually sleep out next to a fire/coals, and if the weather picks up, I throw a sportsman's emergency blanket over me, so I like a little of both, just avoid heatshrinking:grumpy:

I see them as interconnected, and manifesting in more ways than just material fixed overhead, or a pile of burning wood. That said, I'd rather skimp on fire than shelter, if made to choose; would hate to be caught out nekkid. Conversely, I 100% agree, warm & wet is better than cold & wet:thumbup:.
Whatever we can do to most effectively conserve our energy is the key, maintaining our core body temperature to the most efficient degree possible. 'Course, if there was a ditch full of leaves, you wouldn't have to do much but crawl down in there, and all else failing, set it ablaze :foot:

 

[beef]

Very enjoyable thread, thanks everyone. These topics are the reason I read this forum

 

[TheGame]

I think it depends on the weather and your own conditions. If the weather is fair, than I would get a fire, than work on the shelter. If the weather is bad, shelter comes first, than I would work on a fire if I had the time and strength to do so.