Fire and Shelter

[Iboschi]

I'm not feeling real great today. I keep thinking of a debris shelter burning. Burning. Burning. With as much as we focus on fire 'round here, I think you're right to draw those conclusions. In fact, it would be fun to push the envelope in regards to shelters and see if we can come up with some original ideas or hybrids of existing shelter methods. Or perhaps I ought to just take a nap.

 

[Rick Marchand]

...
Many Survival Schools speak of the 'Sacred Four' in this order:
-Shelter
-Water
-Food
-Fire

I'm glad you brought that up PJ...

The Sacred Four change with every situation. To put an "order" to them is dangerous IMO. The list, as you copied it, may apply to dry, arid regions or temperate forests. I have trouble with that order for cold environments. You can still freeze to death in a shelter and drinking cold water will get you there quicker.

You can survive a cold night sitting next to a fire. It may be a sleepless night, but you'll live. We have put thermometers 4ft away from a 4ft long fire with (3) 6-8" dia logs burning. The outside temperature was -22C(-8F and it was 19C(65F) at 4ft away. If you can get a good sized fire going, a snowfall/rain will not put it out. Once you have the fire to fall back on(warm your hands, drink some hot fluids), you can spend time on a shelter.

Rick

 

[dextersp1]

As mentioned - it all depends on the situation.

This is the key and we are all thinking of different factors when answering the question.
Some of the variables are:
What we have with us
Temperature - current and overnight
Weather - current and over night - dry, wet, snow, dew point
Ground conditions - wet, snow, dry, insects?
Environment/Geography - Tundra, desert, temperate, jungle, altitude

In an area with deep snow; digging a snow cave might be appropriate. In the desert, a fire might be better than shelter.

 

[beeperboy]

You can survive a cold night sitting next to a fire. It may be a sleepless night, but you'll live. We have put thermometers 4ft away from a 4ft long fire with (3) 6-8" dia logs burning. The outside temperature was -22C(-8F and it was 19C(65F) at 4ft away. If you can get a good sized fire going, a snowfall/rain will not put it out. Once you have the fire to fall back on(warm your hands, drink some hot fluids), you can spend time on a shelter.

Rick

I agree with Rick. In the spring/fall/winter months up north here, the days are very short. If I was running out of daylight, I'd build a big fire, gather lots of firewood, then start on the shelter. The shelter can be built/tweaked by the firelight, but firewood can not be gathered in the dark. Also, getting a fire going after you're cold and your fingers are frozen is going to be much more difficult. Been there...

BB

 

[GWashington1732]

Depends on the scenario, as was already said shelter is impreritive for keeping dry and keeping the wind off. I know from experience that hypotermia totally sucks, and I only got a mild case from a cold rain at work; I can't imagine having to deal with a bad case in the woods. If you're already wet, however, and it's stopped raining, or you fell into a body of water, fire is a good way to get dry and shelter won't do you that much good if you're still cold and wet. If it has recently snowed but isn't anymore fire will keep you warm but so will shelter. In dry calm cold, I'd go with fire, fire will keep you moving to keep the fire going, and the work, along with the fire will help to keep you warm. That's just a few scenarios of an infinate number of possibilities.

 

[paleojoe]

Magnussen/Rick,

I agree with you completely, but thought it was worth mentioning as many schools teach this. If anything, it demonstrates the importance of shelter...


As for the burning aspect of a debris hut, there are many things to consider when setting one up: having a fire upwind from the shelter, having the opening of a shelter not face in the direction of prevailing winds, distance of fire from shelter, size of fire, etc....

 

[nemoaz]

But most people think 'roof' when they consider shelter.
I have always said, 'shelter is both a roof and a blanket.

With this, where does shelter start? The clothes on your body.
Clothing is the first step in sheltering from exposure. Shelter is of the utmost of importance.

Excellent. Shelter is both roof and blanket. Clothes may be enough in some environs. Or a trashbag/tarp/poncho may be enough.

Many Survival Schools speak of the 'Sacred Four' in this order:
-Shelter
-Water
-Food
-Fire

I wouldn't put much faith in a school that taught that. Food really isn't a priority. Some say you can last 3 weeks without food (Ron Hood survival.com). The military said 30-45 days.

IMO the priorities are shelter, water, and signalling. Nature or circumstance may provide either shelter (or warm weather) or fresh water.

Every time this comes up, I am reminded of The Edge which demonstrated the principal fairly well. Don't be caught trying to chase a rodent when you should be focusing on priorities. If the search plane flies over, you'd better have that signal fire (and other static signals) ready. Or if that storm brews up quickly, you'd better have appropriate shelter.

Yes, lack of food makes for inferior performance, but most of that is mindset. One of the first thing that the military does in special ops training is to deprive soldiers of comforts (food, heat) and food. Mental toughness will get you through those situations. You can do FAR more than you think you can, if you have the mental toughness.

 

[matthewdanger]

Thanks for all of the discussion everyone. This is turning into exactly the type of thread I hoped it would be - not only are we talking about the specifics of building fire and shelter, but also the reasoning behind them. Thinking through these things ahead of time can be immensely valuable.

A couple of important take away points that I am noticing:

1. You better have the skills ahead of time. You may not have access to a Youtube video on debris huts when you need one.

2. One must be able to quickly prioritize what one really needs to survive based on all the available information (time, resources, climate, light, etc).

3. Though I have been doing this stuff as a hobby for years, I can always use more practice and more experience. I doubt that, if I ever have to use these skills for real, things will go as well as they do in my somewhat controlled practice environments.

 

[bmb5108]

Happy new year fellow members..
Have to say my shelter is very easy set up, I`m from Norway and up here it gets cold in the winter.
I don`t know if you`ve ever heard of something called "Jerven"... This is cind of a tarp with zippers on all sides,. You can get them either in regular or insulated versions.
Check them out at www.jerven.no (I don`t know if they have a site in english)
They have tested the insulated version in 5 fahrenheit and just crawled in there without a sleepingbag, and they got the temp up to 50 fahrenheit just by their own bodytemperature.
And the damn thing works like the add says, I know cause I`ve used them at wintermaneuvers with the army up here..
You can even heat them even more using only a candle placed in your tin-cup between your feet when you are sitting up..

Here is the English version of the Jerven site, if anyone is interested:

https://jerven-com.secure.flexiweb.no/

These look like they would be pretty handy!

 

[mtwarden]

I started a thread some time back, something along the lines of debris shelter or lean-to for "winter"- obviously lean-to is dependent on fire, debris not so, was a very good discussion- with that in mind, my winter kit now carries three small 8 hour candles. You would be very surprised (pleasantly ) how much heat a candle adds to a well constructed debris shelter. You still need to be careful obviously, but the risk of burning down your shelter is pretty low.

That doesn't negate the need for a fire certainly, as mentioned several times already many scenarios where I'm building a fire first and shelter second (or not at all)- one that comes to mind was getting dumped (via canoe) into the Yellowstone in mid December (balmy 5 degrees out)- shelter was not my first priority I can assure you

I also strongly agree that to put priorities in a fixed position is a little dangerous- those priorities can easily be different in different scenarios. I think it's critical to be thinking priorities, but you don't want to be locked in either

good discussion