firestarting in extreme conditions

I have done this about a dozen times now without "cheating" using the prepared tinder bundle and it is *way* harder.

It is actually a lot easier if it gets cold enough for everything to freeze because then you can knock off ice and snow which is much easier than trying to dry out rain. Wood also splits and cracks a lot easier when frozen. However your fingers go numb rapidly in heavy cold and trying to do fine work with heavy mitts sucks, many of the folders I tried could not even be handled as it was difficult to keep the edge away from the glove/mitt. Plus they can also freeze solid and refuse to open/close which is annoying.

I tried a few lights, the photo white was an advantage for seeing the tinder and helped for moving around but I would really want a lot more, it was basically like a light overcast night. It was also near useless for keeping track of the knife on a laynard. I did a few test throws (fishing line) and it wasn't hard for the light to be obscured. However a small mag light (single AAA) was easily enough to prepare tinder, walk around and very bright when attached to a knife, but too awkward bouncing around on a small folder unless you use a long laynard and wrap it around your wrist. The burn times are also way lower than for the photon.

One thing which is interesting is deciding to use a small amount of time to either (a) scout for conditions or (b) make tinder and start the fire. Either one of these has +/-, the conditions around here are so varied I'd tend to use the light to scout because it is very unlikely that you can go somewhere where you can't find a very nice point to start a fire by exploring for even 20-30 minutes (gather materials as you are exploring). In a completely unknown places I'd probably use it to start a fire as soon as possible because you could end up in the dark in a poor condition with no tinder.

-Cliff
 
Hmm , a dark and stormy night ! Buncha boys in the woods at midnight ! We didn,t call them firestarting classes . we called them premature funerals ! L:O:L

Is that MacCallans a kind of Scotch .
 
I hope I'm not hijacking this thread, but on the topic of finding 'stuff' in the dark -- beside tying a Photon or some other light source to a knife or other tool, I've heard of people using luminescent safety tape as Tarsier mentions above.

I first encountered this stuff (luminescent, not just reflective) in the HUGE EDC thread on the main forum -- a couple of people had applied it to stuff like flashlights and PSK tins. Does anyone have any experience with this stuff, and/or know where it can be found? I found an eBay seller that sold luminescent tape designed for use on stairs and outdoor walkways, but I imagine such stuff would be too coarse and maybe too thick to use on small tools.
 
Great thread has me thinking about alot of things. question: Ok so the guy who knew the area won (obvious advantage), but who got second and what did he do better/different than the other "losers"?

Improvised tinder in the mountains of Montana was "goat's beard" (the black moss that grows on all pine trees) and tree pitch from the Alpine fir (piss fir) tree. This tree contains a lot more pitch than a "regular" pine tree. So much so that it has boils of pitch that you can stab with a twig and dab the pitch with the moss. Useful there but not here in the desert. :( Can't wait to try the cardboard/wax tinder. Thanks Cliff.
 
There were few fires actually made, many didn't attempt it seriously because it was really difficult and frustrating and it lacked the actual element of a survival situation which was need. The biggest problems were attemping methods without improvising to deal with the rain, not treating it seriously and vastly underestimating the ability of even light rain to quickly ruin tinder.

One of the guys with the most success had no experience, had a really poor tinder (dryer lint, flares up, stinks, and soaks up water rapidly and is difficult to dry as it mats), but treated it like it was a survival situation and was very determined and simply kept at it, and refused to quit and basically kept trying different materials at random and different ways to start the fire.

This is why I don't think there are essential survival items or even skills, there are lots of enviroments where knowing how to build a fire, wood based shelters and traps/weapons etc. are useless as there is no wood or anything similar to use as a substitute. The only thing I would call universally essential is the will to survive and the focus to accept you are in a bad situation and that you have to do something to get out of it and that you will make this happen.

Doing more work since then, locally I would dig a hole instead of trying to build a wood based shelter in heavy wind/rain for a break because I can dig a hole very quickly (minutes) which I can overlay with boughs to make a complete wind/rain break and the boughs will eventually dry and burn as well. It is awkward to use a ferro rod and striker one handed though (you can get integral versions which don't have this limitation) so you need a fairly big hole for that and a much smaller one with matches/lighter.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
One of the guys with the most success had no experience, had a really poor tinder (dryer lint, flares up, stinks, and soaks up water rapidly and is difficult to dry as it mats), but treated it like it was a survival situation and was very determined and simply kept at it, and refused to quit and basically kept trying different materials at random and different ways to start the fire.
-Cliff
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thanks Cliff...I bolded the biggest lessen of the exercise for me...other than you really need to prioritize what to do first if you have little light and it is wet.
 
Thomas Linton said:
Would you be digging this hole in the side of a bank?
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There are little in the way of banks here, most of the woods is flat, I would pick the location mainly based on materials for shelter and fire and inherent protection from the elements. A horizontal hole into a steep bank would be easiest for handling and you could even pound in a spike initially to make a hole to serve as a draft. the problem would be actually using the fire for heat due to the way fire radiates, however it would probably be best for actually starting a fire and once you have a decent coal you can easily move the fire to a more suitable location. Nice point.

zenheretic said:
...I bolded the biggest lessen of the exercise for me...
Click to expand...

Some of the things people have survived are pretty staggering, you can't really judge how people would act in an actual survival situation though from something like the above, it will show what they know, but you can know something and have no ability to use it under stress. This is also a fairly extreme combination of events and to be blunt it is more of a fantasy than reality in terms of specific preperation.

It is possible of course to for some reason get randomally dumped with no gear in the woods in the dark, but how many "survival" reports are actually of this type, you probably have a much better chance of winning the powerball. I don't actually do it to prepare for those situations as I don't see it as a significant chance, however what I have found is that the more time you spend on the difficult senarios, the easier it gets when all the complications are removed.

People get lost locally and others fall through the ice every year, but only once have I heard of a situation similar to the above. It happened out around Burin where a plane crashed and several people survived for several months with little to no gear. This was a long time ago, they wrote a book about it, I have been meaning to track it down.

I severely doubt they had any bushcraft or "survival" skills, it was on the news awhile ago, the main food they ate were berries which are very plentyful here in the fall, you can *easily* pick a litre of blueberries in under a half an hour.

...other than you really need to prioritize what to do first if you have little light and it is wet.
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It is amazing the difference that even a small amount of light can make, just go out into a random area and see how much of it you can cover in just 10-15 minutes with a brisk walk. You can see quite a ways and thus you can visually cover a lot of ground, similar if you go to the top of a small hill, or even a short tree.

In almost complete darkness, you can see pretty much nothing, there could be a perfect shelter region even 20-30 feet from you and you would never see it, you could even walk by it several times. I even knew where the ones I made were and had trouble finding them. You could even be quite close to a road or a cabin.

The best way to think of it is as it if were just another resource you have and make the most use of it.

-Cliff
 
Since you've clearly demonstrated the advantage of a wind and rain shield in those conditions, I wonder what could be carried in your kit to perform that function? A medium size plastic bag, maybe? Put you tinder inside with the open end facing away from the wind, and let the fire burn through as it grows. It would be one-use only but you could carry more than one. It would be handy for carrying water as well.
 
Most things can be improvised, you can use the plastic bag around a wood based frame as a wind break, but if the wind is really erratic it can be hard because it doesn't take much to blow out a fire in the early stages. I have used pop cans, they work well as almost a complete fire break, you can cut a small opening on one side in the bottom and a slit on top and light the fire form underneath with a match and feed more material in through the top. Matches are nice here because you can even put a rock in the can and strike the match off of it. If you have more than one person it is a lot easier because one person can act as a decent wind break, taking care as always around fire. On one of the Timbersports challenges a team was doing the water boil and using their bodies to shelter the fire and caught themselves on fire in the process.

-Cliff
 
I ran into a guy on the PCT who carried oatmeal boxs full of light "burnables" with the box packaged in butcher's waxed paper. He just cut a "door" in the side and stuck a match in. That's a contrived solution, rather than improvised, but the area was one of virtually constant rain - unless there was heavy fog. These super fire-starters were bulky but not heavy at all. Some of the "burnables" he had inside were dry pine needles and pinecones dipped in wax.
 
How about one of those folding umbrellas? You could cut off most of the handle and use little paracord guy lines to hold it in situ while you get a bit of a coal bed going. Once the fire has taken hold a little you can hold flex the ribs a little to make a more oval shape. With the majority of the handle removed it wouldnnt weigh too much either.

So dig a small hole
Pitch the umbrella
prepare tinder and kindling under its cover
light
wait & dry other fuel
remove
 
This thread is very informative - I really appreciate it.

On the subject of Wax, wanted to let you know (and you might already) you can find some really great Wax covered string by visiting this site http://www.graybar.com/catalog/default.html

and do a search for "Lacing Cord"

This stuff is great to have in your pocket for various reasons (hanging a tarp/ tying boughs/ hanging deer etc), but also may serve as a good alternative to wrap your starter kits with - it burns great, and is Very strong.

Description Lacing Cord, Waxed Linen, 9 Cord, 400 yd, 54 lb Minimum Strength, .048 in Nominal Diameter

They have different levels of strength in their cord options.

I'm a telco guy, and our techs swear by this stuff because of it's durability and strength.

I got a roll, and cut off sections of about 20-30 ft, and keep in various kits, and at those lengths it stores in about a 3 inch by 1 inch bundle in your coat pocket - it's very light weight.


Again, Killer thread.

Thanks,

sp
 
Barrabas said:
... it stores in about a 3 inch by 1 inch bundle in your coat pocket - it's very light weight.
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Yes you can pack an awful lot of high tensile line in very tight places, some of the better fishing lines are very strong and abrasion resistant. Interesting reference to the waxed cord, I have wrapped kydex sheaths in paracord to aid in impact resistance, you can burn it but it isn't a great firestarting material.

Thomas Linton said:
Some of the "burnables" he had inside were dry pine needles and pinecones dipped in wax.
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Wax is very useful due to its burn time, fat/oil is similar and better in some ways as you can also eat it but isn't as inert as wax, you can buy chunk suet locally though I should try that. In a pinch, how well does traditional high fat pemmican work as a pseudo-candle?

Temper said:
How about one of those folding umbrellas?
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That is a nice idea and it has lots of other uses as well, gathering tinder or food (berries), plus the framework can be taken apart and used for other things. You could also improvise one fairly quickly by making a tripod and using a plastic bag or piece of canvas as the covering. In an extreme a layer of clothing could be used but this is now entering into dangerous territory.

-Cliff
 
I have always wondered if one of those super small light weight butane refil-able torches with the Peizo-Electric igniter would make a good survival item. I bet somebody had one of those for cliffs night they would have won quickly.

Jim
 
bigjim said:
I have always wondered if one of those super small light weight butane refil-able torches with the Peizo-Electric igniter would make a good survival item. I bet somebody had one of those for cliffs night they would have won quickly.

Jim
Click to expand...
Now thats not a bad idea!:thumbup:
 
Are these lighters fussy about gas? The $30.00 Windmill POS lighter that I had went through 1 tank and then wouldnt stop once started or wouldnt light :rolleyes:

I think the KISS principle has to be the best in any 'extreme' situation. Although it is possible to cool a 6 pack in under 30 seconds from room temp with a CO2 fire extinguisher, sometimes the end justifies the means. :D
 
100mph wind tape or duck tape burns like napalm. try using this tape to tie you bundles of whatever together. try using it instead of rubber. i alway carry a small roll of it to use in fires and also to mend things. once i even made a butterfly bandage and stuck a mans forehead together.
i always taped several layers of it on my kayak paddle or my boat oars so i could just peal it off and use it for whatever.
i haven't tried eating it yet though.
 
I have tried tapes instead of rope to tie up the bundles, you get more flame and they are easier to cut up. For extreme conditions I had made some actual pseudo-logs. Take a roll of heavy plastic, add a few handfuls of heavy shavings, then light shavings then strips of newsprint, now sprinkle with pieces of rubber and cover with wax, roll it up and then tape it up. It is waterproof and very light. Slimply cut it open and light it up. It will burn for easily long enough to actually dry out woods and burn them. It does however make a fairly foul smell and generates lots of thick smoke. Cut it in half and stand them up and ignite the bottom for a heavy and fast burn and slice it lenghtwise for a much slower burn.

-Cliff
 
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