Firesteel vs a Lighter...

[stabman]

Have you ever tried to start a fire with butane gas in sub freezing weather?

Yep.
It's VERY easy...just warm up the lighter in your hands or armpit.
It ain't rocket science people.
If you can't start a fire in the woods with a knife and a lighter then you rather suck at lighting fires.

 

[thrillbilly]

I lived in YNP for a year. My Bic lit my cigs for me every time at -45 degrees. You just have to be smart enough to carry it against your body! I simply carried it in my T-shirt (base layer) pocket with my pack like I always do.

YNP is Yellowstone Nat'l Park BTW.

 

[Don Rearic]

It ain't rocket science people.
If you can't start a fire in the woods with a knife and a lighter then you rather suck at lighting fires.

Those two points also apply to a ferrocerium rod.

I mean, this is just comical at this point.

 

[XanRa]

This is all comical I don't care what you carry but can you start a fire with your knife and whatever's laying around in the woods??? That's real survival

I'm ethier using as much technology as possible or as little as possible- screw the in betweens

Just my humble opinion people

Ok..
.
.
Fight!
Rofl

 

[stabman]

Those two points also apply to a ferrocerium rod.

Which is why I carry a ferro rod as well.

 

[stabman]

This is all comical I don't care what you carry but can you start a fire with your knife and whatever's laying around in the woods??? That's real survival

Possibly...I got it to work one time.
The next time I said "screw it!" because it was too much work.

 

[thrillbilly]

but can you start a fire with your knife and whatever's laying around in the woods??? That's real survival

I would think TRUE ''caveman'' survival would be starting a fire WITHOUT a knife or ANYthing other then what you find in the woods. I aint preparing to wake up naked in the woods after being abducted by aliens (which is the only scenario I can foresee that would leave me in that situation) I am simply doing the best I can to ensure I can survive an outdoor emergency...I don't seek danger for fun, I carry at least the basics at all times when I leave pavement. YMMV, JMHO.

 

[upnorth]

I use both. The lighter is easier and more convenient. The firesteel is there in case the lighter craps out.

Exactly, keep it simple but have back ups.

 

[XanRa]

I would think TRUE ''caveman'' survival would be starting a fire WITHOUT a knife or ANYthing other then what you find in the woods. I aint preparing to wake up naked in the woods after being abducted by aliens (which is the only scenario I can foresee that would leave me in that situation) I am simply doing the best I can to ensure I can survive an outdoor emergency...I don't seek danger for fun, I carry at least the basics at all times when I leave pavement. YMMV, JMHO.

Ok I'm done with this thread- you just proved my point... But... Whatever lol
My head hurts

 

[upnorth]

I could care less about starting fires with fero rods or whatever toy tickles my teats at the moment in good conditions. What I'm interested in and take very seriously are the shitty conditions, Solid rain all day, minus 45 in the winter etc. There are many here that forgot more than I know about fire starting. But.......... I have been out there and taught myself how to start a fire with natural materials and a fero rod after a 24 hour long rain. I was able to start a fire on the north shore of Lake Athabasca with the crappy shoreline grass in the snow at super extreme temperatures....with a lighter. It wasn't as simple as it sounds either when you consider how quickly your hands etc start to freeze up. I don't care if a guy starts a fire with bat snot. Just make sure that you CAN get one lit in your worst possible conditions. Then popping one off in the dead of dry summer will seem a simple experience.

 

[XanRa]

I could care less about starting fires with fero rods or whatever toy tickles my teats at the moment in good conditions. What I'm interested in and take very seriously are the shitty conditions, Solid rain all day, minus 45 in the winter etc. There are many here that forgot more than I know about fire starting. But.......... I have been out there and taught myself how to start a fire with natural materials and a fero rod after a 24 hour long rain. I was able to start a fire on the north shore of Lake Athabasca with the crappy shoreline grass in the snow at super extreme temperatures....with a lighter. It wasn't as simple as it sounds either when you consider how quickly your hands etc start to freeze up. I don't care if a guy starts a fire with bat snot. Just make sure that you CAN get one lit in your worst possible conditions. Then popping one off in the dead of dry summer will seem a simple experience.

Thank you- that's been my poorly stated point since the beginning

 

[mat_890]

After reading the entire thread I realize that I am certainly the minority who thinks firesteels are over-rated.

I take a refillable butane lighter and a sealed gas lighter. The gas works when wet, cold, high altitude, when stomped on, when dropped from a cliff and even when consumed and expelled by a mother grizzly bear. The butane works the remaining 99.9% of the time. Sometimes use a firesteel for fun. IMHO there is no realistic situation where a firesteel can beat a butane/gas lighter combo.

I see why people use them as backup, I mean why the hell not? I myself have them in various kits, but if your with a group of 5 people all who have two better ways of making a fire, you need to ask yourself how much backup you really need.

The main downside I see with firesteels, the downside some people seem to ignore is the fact the require two uninjured hands to work efficiently. I know the blastmatch and others act as exceptions and that there are one hand options but have you ever actually tried them with a broken arm? Personally I see a broken arm as much more likely then your lighters failing.

Just my opinion... don't bite my head off.

 

[neeman]

We are talking about lighting a fire in a cold and wet situation.
The wood is wet
You are also cold and wet

A ferro rod needs tinder
You also must carry tinder with your ferro rod
And if it is wet, you are not going to find it on the ground, and you might find birch bark if you are in those type of woods
But we are talking about a very high level and practiced skill set, with a high level of motor control lost in hypothermia

A lighter, if protected from the wind, skips the fine tinder step and you start with a direct flame
This needs a lesser skill set and much less motor skills than in getting the spark from the rod onto tinder

Personally, my final backup kit is my 40 year old waterproof match case, and a small block of white barbque fire starter

 

[kgd]

I myself have them in various kits, but if your with a group of 5 people all who have two better ways of making a fire you need to ask yourself how much backup you really need.

.....The main downside I see with firesteels, the downside some people seem to ignore is the fact the require two uninjured hands to work efficiently. I know the blastmatch and others act as exceptions and that there are one hand options but have you ever actually tried them with a broken arm? Personally I see a broken arm as much more likely then your lighters failing.

Camping with 5 people, I think they call that a commune

I really don't think that the way somebody starts a fire (ignition method) is all that important. I also carry a fresnel lens card in my wallet. It has the downside of needing a good view of the sun, but it works great when you have that condition and the card take up no room along with my usual i.d. I carry anyway.

I think the only real downside to lighters is that they can be so effective that they invite complacency among the broader public. The boy scouts took great pride in the 'one match fire' not because the match is the best way to start a fire. It was because in order to make a one match fire you need to learn the fundamentals of firecraft first, to prepare your tinder and kindling ahead of time and to not rush trying to ignite to large a fuel to begin with.

The simple truth is that many folks not familiar with fire but who know how to use a lighter simply go about their fire prep in an incorrect way. They try to light wet logs and big soggy sticks with a lighter by holding the tiny flame under it until their finger burns from the shield plate of the lighter. I remember camping next to some ladies literally trying to ignite an old soggy stump (one that I couldn't get my arms around) with a lighter. Failing that, one of them poured white gas on the thing and lit it up. It burned until the fuel was gone and then sputtered out. Very, very comical if it wasn't for their annoying kids screaming and barking dog and the radio with Dwight Yokum or something blasting, I would have found it quite the entertainment.

So long story short, I think the larger value of learning and practicing more basic methods of fire ignition is that it gets you into the boy scout one match fire mentality. You go about preparing your materials before you even attempt to ignite it. Time spent on firecraft is hardly about ignition and largely about sorting, finding and preparing your fuel and making sure that is in order. Sometimes you can run like a monkey and try to collect pieces as the fire goes along, but that is a piss poor way to do things and it won't work when the chips are down.

So perhaps end of story, this thread was misguided from the start. A competent woodsman can use a wide variety of gadgets (or even go full on abo) to ignite their fire. However, as divergent as folks may be in what they use for ignition, they will apply similar approaches to building a self sustaining fire that provides the critical aspects of warmth, water and food prep.

 

[j williams]

This is all comical I don't care what you carry but can you start a fire with your knife and whatever's laying around in the woods??? That's real survival

I'm ethier using as much technology as possible or as little as possible- screw the in betweens

Just my humble opinion people

Ok..
.
.
Fight!
Rofl

You make no sense. Im sorry, but first its getting comfy with one tech, then no tech or high tech, then now its can you do this without anything or with just a knife. This thread is about the merits of firesteel vs lighters, and has taken a cool direction into what I thought was educating some newer folks on the merits of a firesteel and why one should be packed and practiced with. Have you ever done a fire without a knife or any tools? Ever done friction fire with a knife and string in wet weather? Anyone worth their salt knows that friction fire is almost useless in a wet enviroment.

A true woodsman needs no tools or firestarters. He can ignite fires with only his sharp wit. hahaha. This is a typical thread that turns into trying to explain things to some people who have no interest in learning from experianced individuals, and all the intrest in arguement. Im all for it if you have a thought process behind what you are saying, but I havent read one reply on how a bic is better that was based in anything other then what seems to me, a lack of skill in using a ferro.

Some good advise has been shared here, I hope someone picks up what some of us are puttin down for em.

Nobody is sayin pack a ferro and nothing else. We are saying pack one and practice with it. It might save your butt, or get a fire goin better then that lighter. I know its hard to believe but Ive had fires get going easier with a ferro rod then a lighter, and vise versa. Both should be carried and mastered. This isnt even a "survival" issue. This is a basic woodsmanship issue. If lighters were the go to firestarter, military around the world would not issue ferro rods or Doans blocks in survival kits. Hundreds of qualified and skilled folks would not carry and teach the method in their classes and books.

 

[j williams]

We are talking about lighting a fire in a cold and wet situation.
The wood is wet
You are also cold and wet

A ferro rod needs tinder
You also must carry tinder with your ferro rod
And if it is wet, you are not going to find it on the ground, and you might find birch bark if you are in those type of woods
But we are talking about a very high level and practiced skill set, with a high level of motor control lost in hypothermia

A lighter, if protected from the wind, skips the fine tinder step and you start with a direct flame
This needs a lesser skill set and much less motor skills than in getting the spark from the rod onto tinder

Personally, my final backup kit is my 40 year old waterproof match case, and a small block of white barbque fire starter

All fires need dry tinder. If you dont have dry wood and tinder, your lighter aint doin squat. There is waay more dry tinder then birch bark or fatwood. Just gotta know where. Striking a ferro rod effectivly requires less motor skills then fumbling with a lighter or match in cold temps.

And yes, a firesteel can be sparked with one good hand.

 

[mtwarden]

it seems some folks are trying to frame this is as "one or the other" for some reason as if they are mutually exclusive and not quite certain why?

those advocating a ferro rod as an effective fire starting tool aren't denying the usefulness of a lighter- I always carry one, as I'm sure most others do as well. we are simply saying that a ferro rod (w/ practice!) can be an excellent platform to get a fire going and that when it comes to getting a fire going when you most need it- don't have all your eggs in one basket (regardless of your favorite basket )

 

[upnorth]

After reading the entire thread I realize that I am certainly the minority who thinks fire steels are over-rated.

I take a refillable butane lighter and a sealed gas lighter. The gas works when wet, cold, high altitude, when stomped on, when dropped from a cliff and even when consumed and expelled by a mother grizzly bear. The butane works the remaining 99.9% of the time. Sometimes use a fire steel for fun. IMHO there is no realistic situation where a fire steel can beat a butane/gas lighter combo.

I see why people use them as backup, I mean why the hell not? I myself have them in various kits, but if your with a group of 5 people all who have two better ways of making a fire, you need to ask yourself how much backup you really need.

The main downside I see with fire steels, the downside some people seem to ignore is the fact the require two uninjured hands to work efficiently. I know the blast match and others act as exceptions and that there are one hand options but have you ever actually tried them with a broken arm? Personally I see a broken arm as much more likely then your lighters failing.

Just my opinion... don't bite my head off.

If I offended anyone I apologize. My language is a bit scruffy and direct at times, but I wish no one ill will. Basically all I'm saying here is use WHATEVER you like to start a fire and practice your ability in your worst case scenario. I am definitely no expert and readily admit that. I did however challenge myself to actually get out and use my fire starting tools in adverse conditions. Myself, I could care less if a guy started a fire with a bucket of gas and a road flare. I can respect someone trying primitive fire starting means as another back up emergency skill. But really, when you are half frozen, getting hungry and it's late in the day...on and on, I see no point in using ancient technology. Sometimes it's your life at risk and not a camp out. The northern Indians use chain saws to cut up their camp wood because it's far more efficient, and have an axe as a back up. The old fur traders used a flint and steel with char cloth because that was the latest technology back then. I also opt for the most efficient portable fire starter today, a lighter, with back ups like a fero rod etc. I bid all of you a good day.

 

[Don Rearic]

I think the only real downside to lighters is that they can be so effective that they invite complacency among the broader public. The boy scouts took great pride in the 'one match fire' not because the match is the best way to start a fire. It was because in order to make a one match fire you need to learn the fundamentals of firecraft first, to prepare your tinder and kindling ahead of time and to not rush trying to ignite to large a fuel to begin with.

The simple truth is that many folks not familiar with fire but who know how to use a lighter simply go about their fire prep in an incorrect way. They try to light wet logs and big soggy sticks with a lighter by holding the tiny flame under it until their finger burns from the shield plate of the lighter. I remember camping next to some ladies literally trying to ignite an old soggy stump (one that I couldn't get my arms around) with a lighter. Failing that, one of them poured white gas on the thing and lit it up. It burned until the fuel was gone and then sputtered out.

In Paul Risk's excellent book, "Outdoor Safety and Survival," he passes on a story from his days as a Park Ranger...of seeing a log that had been kicked across a campsite. Little burn marks on the end of it and a pile of burned matches lying on the ground.

Now - I HAVE SEEN THIS!

MORE THAN ONCE!!!

It's like looking at deer tracks in a book and then going out in the woods as a young hunter and looking down and saying to yourself, "That's what was in the book all right - DEER TRACKS!"

I have observed the tracks of Homo-thinkus-BICcus-is-epitimus. You find the log but no matches. Sometimes you find the matches. Sometimes you find the lighter, spent, on the ground, too.

Time spent on firecraft is hardly about ignition and largely about sorting, finding and preparing your fuel and making sure that is in order. Sometimes you can run like a monkey and try to collect pieces as the fire goes along, but that is a piss poor way to do things and it won't work when the chips are down.

While we are at it, perhaps we need to revamp The Rule of Threes that Ron Hood and others have pounded into the collective conscience of the survival community - "Three times the amount of wood/fuel you think you are going to need."

A lot of people say it but they don't include it in The Rule of Threes, perhaps we should start. Most people have no idea how much would it is going to take to stay alive all night in the cold.

This is a typical thread that turns into trying to explain things to some people who have no interest in learning from experianced individuals, and all the interest in argument. Im all for it if you have a thought process behind what you are saying, but I havent read one reply on how a bic is better that was based in anything other then what seems to me, a lack of skill in using a ferro.

Uh-yup.

This isnt even a "survival" issue. This is a basic woodsmanship issue. If lighters were the go to firestarter, military around the world would not issue ferro rods or Doans blocks in survival kits. Hundreds of qualified and skilled folks would not carry and teach the method in their classes and books.

Since at least World War Two, I think that is how long the "metal match" has been in military survival kits.

it seems some folks are trying to frame this is as "one or the other" for some reason as if they are mutually exclusive and not quite certain why?

those advocating a ferro rod as an effective fire starting tool aren't denying the usefulness of a lighter- I always carry one, as I'm sure most others do as well. we are simply saying that a ferro rod (w/ practice!) can be an excellent platform to get a fire going and that when it comes to getting a fire going when you most need it- don't have all your eggs in one basket (regardless of your favorite basket )

The picture below is a set-up I have for my Wife. I have another Kydex sheath for a Mini-BIC for myself. She has that DOAN Magnesium Firestarter, a file salvaged from a ravaged set of Gerber Multipliers and a regular sized BIC in a Kydex sheath.

If I thought the BIC had NO VALUE, I would not have them at all.

 

[mat_890]

All fires need dry tinder. If you dont have dry wood and tinder, your lighter aint doin squat. There is waay more dry tinder then birch bark or fatwood. Just gotta know where. Striking a ferro rod effectivly requires less motor skills then fumbling with a lighter or match in cold temps.

And yes, a firesteel can be sparked with one good hand.

All fires need dry tinder BUT a lighter can actually dry the tinder for you to aid in ignition. Sparks will not. If you don't believe it I invite you to give it a try.

Also there is no way using a firesteel is easier in the cold with an injured hand then flicking a spark wheel on a lighter but I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I could, and sometimes do use a firesteel but like I have said before, its for fun not for utility. I have also used magnifying glasses, two rocks containing quartz (with no success) and a bow drill but again it was all for fun, not to save my freezing ass.