Firesteel vs a Lighter...

stabman said:
Yep.
It's VERY easy...just warm up the lighter in your hands or armpit.:)
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Did you and Thrillbilly stop at that sentence. In my post, in the very next sentence in fact, I state the ability to warm butane in your armpit, however all this does is balances the pressure and gives a very short, cold light that isn't good for much more than lighting that cigarette which will likely be your last. I know a bic is a great lighter. Its the one that never fails if it has fluid. I've used them to light smoke on the top of blistering cold mountains my entire life. However in an emergency you may not have any body heat to work with. Emergencies, for people who are familiar with the outdoors like yourself, happen due to a series of bad luck and happenstance. All I'm saying is if the weather will drop below freezing at any time during the next 24 hrs of when you step out that door, you may want to take that one card out of lady lucks hand, and carry something additional.

To reply to another post I have read, I have never really considered the point of having one hand injured making it difficult to use some sort of sparking type fire ignition. There again is another piece in the "when things go from bad to worse" puzzle. It deserves some thought just as that injury has been given thought in my firearms training. I might consider that an argument for carrying matches over flint and magnesium if you could only carry one.
 
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schmiddy said:
Did you and Thrillbilly stop at that sentence. In my post, in the very next sentence in fact, I state the ability to warm butane in your armpit, however all this does is balances the pressure and gives a very short, cold light that isn't good for much more than lighting that cigarette which will likely be your last. I know a bic is a great lighter. Its the one that never fails if it has fluid. I've used them to light smoke on the top of blistering cold mountains my entire life. However in an emergency you may not have any body heat to work with. Emergencies, for people who are familiar with the outdoors like yourself, happen due to a series of bad luck and happenstance. All I'm saying is if the weather will drop below freezing at any time during the next 24 hrs of when you step out that door, you may want to take that one card out of lady lucks hand, and carry something additional.
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As long as the butane stays above its boiling point, it will light. The heat generated from the flame will be enough to keep the gas flowing. But I agree a backup is a good idea.

At any point there is no body heat under your arm, your already dead. Take a look at the stages of hypothermia, (which is different from frostbite) even mild hypothermia is life threatening when outdoors, if you progress to 'moderate' hypothermia (the stage where your body conserves warm blood to organs and your toes go blue, persumably the point your lighter won't warm up) you become confused and at that point you pretty much done, unless your with someone who can care for you.
 
schmiddy said:
I don't know about that. Myth Busters?
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I like the way you think :)

I just threw a bic in my deep freezer set to -21C for a very unscientific test. In my experience it has never been a problem but if I'm wrong I will fully admit fault.
 
haha Let me know what you find out. I will go throw my bic in our office break room freezer. I don't know what its set to but its subzero.
 
Ya know, Im done. If a plastic item, made in some far off place pressurized with a fuel that cant be replaced in nature, or opperate 100% in cold weather, or when wet, is how people wanna prepare for the worst, go ahead.

If you wanna pack charcoal and pack gas, road flares, napalm, flints, wicks for zippos....Go ahead. I hope it serves ya well.


BTW I know that a flame will dry out tinder. However, only if its damp. If its wet, have fun holding that tiny flame to your wet tinder while you wait. Ill have the coffee done by the time you get your fire built. Actually a ferro rod will ignite damp tinder too, and dry tinder is always available 100% of the time, as long as there is dead wood to be had. You can even light a candle with a ferro rod. I just dont see how a lighter with many small parts, and a fuel that will go away sometime, is a better woods tool, or more advaced I should say. Maybe for lighting the stove or a smoke, but when you weigh the good vs. the bad as a woods tool, Ferro wins every time in my opinion.
 
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After sitting in the freezer for 10 minutes what I found was it would not light after several sparks (and we all know bic's always light) when I initially stuck my arm in the freezer. I wrapped my warm hand around the lighter and continued to spark it while it warmed. After about 7-8 seconds of warming it lit. What I found was a very small flame that was very un-charicteristic of a bic lighter. The flame quickly died. I lit it again and it stayed lit, but did not increase in size. I am of course letting in all the warm air from outside the freezer so its difficult to say how it would really react. When I did finally depress the button after 20 seconds, the metal was warm but the plastic was still very cold. I flicked my bic again and once again it failed to spark on the first couple tries.
 
schmiddy said:
In my post, in the very next sentence in fact, I state the ability to warm butane in your armpit, however all this does is balances the pressure and gives a very short, cold light that isn't good for much more than lighting that cigarette which will likely be your last.
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Well, seeing as I no longer smoke, guess what? I wasn't lighting cigarettes in the woods in sub-zero temps.
I was lighting a FIRE, not a smoke.
A fire, the thing you said wasn't able to be done with such a deficient device.
 
Thread summed up:
"I carry a lighter as a back-up to my ferro rod."
"You moron, you should only carry a ferro rod as a back-up for a lighter!"
 
I don't think anyone is trying to say that a lighter won't work, per se, but that if you rely on it, you might regret it.

Or, as I said a couple/few days ago in this thread...you make your choices and take your chances. I think people who refer to ferrocerium rods and other devices like them as "toys" and then go on and on about cigarette lighters are actually pretty funny.
 
stabman said:
Thread summed up:
"I carry a lighter as a back-up to my ferro rod."
"You moron, you should only carry a ferro rod as a back-up for a lighter!"
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If that is what you got out of this thread, well, then that's what you got out of this thread.
 
schmiddy said:
After sitting in the freezer for 10 minutes what I found was it would not light after several sparks (and we all know bic's always light) when I initially stuck my arm in the freezer. I wrapped my warm hand around the lighter and continued to spark it while it warmed. After about 7-8 seconds of warming it lit. What I found was a very small flame that was very un-charicteristic of a bic lighter. The flame quickly died. I lit it again and it stayed lit, but did not increase in size. I am of course letting in all the warm air from outside the freezer so its difficult to say how it would really react. When I did finally depress the button after 20 seconds, the metal was warm but the plastic was still very cold. I flicked my bic again and once again it failed to spark on the first couple tries.
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I had a slightly different experience. I threw 2 bics in and one no name adjustable. I also used a zippo as a sort of 'control'.

I tried the first bic and of course no flame, after holding it for a few seconds it lit and stayed lit for as long as I held the button but the flame was quite small. The same happened with the second only this time I held the lighter by the button and bottom to avoid heating the lighter with my hand. As far as I can tell once it gets going its fine, but like I said the flame is small. Both restarted without problem.

With the no name I adjusted the flame up higher and it eventually started spitting flames in the freezer.

I certainly would not use butnane lighters in the winter if I intended to start a fire. The zippo started like normal.
 
Having multiple means of starting a fire is just common sense. Being proficient with those means is even more important. I think this thread should be summed up like this...
1. Carry multiple options (ferro rod, lighter, mag bar, etc.)
2. Use whichever one you like to start your fire.
3. Know how to use all your options.
4. Your opinions on what works best for you will probably change with the environment in which you use them and with the knowledge of the individual pros and cons of each method (only gained through time and experience).

Thanks,
Alan
 
stabman said:
Well, that's what is seemed to become.
It started as something else.:)
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No Dude, you summed it up and if that's what it is to you, then that's what it is.

It is no harm and no foul at all. I don't care one way or the other what people carry in their survival kit or if they carry a survival kit or a single thing for "survival." Their choice. Seatbelts, motorcycle helmets, condoms, don't matter either.

Threads like this with the two or three sides going on, those sides seldom, if ever, convince their opponents of their cause or belief. The intelligent people, I am one of them, know that they play to the Jury, the people who sit by and silently take it all in and want to learn. They can decide, simple as that.
 
j williams said:
I just dont see how a lighter with many small parts, and a fuel that will go away sometime, is a better woods tool, or more advaced I should say. Maybe for lighting the stove or a smoke, but when you weigh the good vs. the bad as a woods tool, Ferro wins every time in my opinion.
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I agree with you on this one 100%. However there is no ferro rod VS Bic for me. I carry both. On me is a mag block/ferro rod and a small zip-lock (snack size) of dryer lint mixed with Maya dust in case I get separated from my pack.

In said pack is my dedicated water proof tinder kit that has more dryer lint mixed with Maya dust, a K&M waterproof match case with strike anywhere matches, and..... yep..... a Bic lighter. Three ways to start fire.... the rule of threes I guess. ;)

The ferro rod stays on me because of all the reasons you mentioned however.
 
I see the thread summary as this.

-I carry a lighter. Ferro rods are toys, and not as good....

-Carry both, and be good with both.

-------------------------

For what its worth my intentions are not to call anyone "moron" My intentions are to educate on the merits of a firesteel to those that dont understand them. I carry a lighter always in my kit. A cheapo crack lighter actually(so I can monitor fuel level, and has adjustable flame) Im just trying to get the guys who regard them as "toys" to broadin their horizons. There is a reason soooooooo many professionals use them. Theres a reason military drills are ran using them to get fire in many differant conditions. I just want folks to get out of the comfort zone and learn a skill with a cheap tool that is proven many times over to work. Flat work. All the back and forth on lighters and ferro rods dont mean squat when you need fire. Thats a helluva time to say..."maybe those guys were right"

Any stance on the subject can be shot down with "what if....." I can not stand that. I go through it in every staff meeting I attend, and it seems like a lot of threads on BF. This place used to be about a sharing of knowladge from skilled individuals, and newcomers alike. Lately its morphed into a petty pissing contest on things that any true woodsman knows do not matter in the dirt. What happened here....
 
j williams said:
I Im just trying to get the guys who regard them as "toys" to broadin their horizons.
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That's a good goal.:)
They certainly are not toys, and work well in conditions like when one gets soaked.
My ESEE fire rod even has a nifty water-tight compartment to keep some dry tinder in, which can be a good thing (not to mention a compass).
 
j williams said:
I see the thread summary as this.

-I carry a lighter. Ferro rods are toys, and not as good....

-Carry both, and be good with both.
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To be clear I'm not saying be good with both. Too each his own. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I happen to rely on the ferro rod over a lighter, but carry both because...... why not? Bic weighs little, and adds one more way to start a fire if needed. Of all the years I have been backpacking I rarely use it. I happen to agree with you, but I don't put any fire starting method in one basket so to speak. ;)

Cascade_mtn's said:
I agree with you on this one 100%. However there is no ferro rod VS Bic for me. I carry both. On me is a mag block/ferro rod and a small zip-lock (snack size) of dryer lint mixed with Maya dust in case I get separated from my pack.

In said pack is my dedicated water proof tinder kit that has more dryer lint mixed with Maya dust, a K&M waterproof match case with strike anywhere matches, and..... yep..... a Bic lighter. Three ways to start fire.... the rule of threes I guess. ;)

The ferro rod stays on me because of all the reasons you mentioned however.
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Curious, but why would you not wanna be good with both?

My ferro rod definatly sees way more use then a lighter, as its my primary method, but im curious why you wouldnt wanna be good with both? Seems like to me that is putting it one basket.

Not trying to piss on ya, just wanna understand what you are saying. (Sorry if its obvious, im kinda tired) lol

When I say primary, I dont mean I catagorize my implements and skills into order of preferance. I have a skillset of firecraft, and that is what I rely on for fire. Depending on time, mood, locale, etc.....
 
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