First Durba/Brass inlay problem

P

pmcelrath

Joined
May 17, 2001
Messages
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Last week I received my first Durba, an 18in Sirupati. What a beautiful blade! It is also my first Sirupati, and I am impressed with it's chopping ability vs. weight. As Yvsa likes to say, it cuts like a much larger Khukri.:D Only one problem, the brass inlay has come out on one side. Is this a fairly common problem with the inlayed models? I have just sent back a BAS for the same reason, and having another one do the same thing makes me wonder if I'm doing something wrong. The blades themselves show no other damage and have only been used for chopping wood, no prying or torture tests. I don't want to send back my first Durba, is there any way to replace the inlay yourself? Thanks for any observations/advice.

Patrick Mc
 
Pat, the inlay problem on your BAS is the first I've had in maybe 3 or 4 years. And now another! If you sent the knife to Terry Sisco he can fix the inlay and I'll pay the cost involved.
 
Pat,

Good question which the experts such as Yvsa or Terry might be able to give you some answers...
 
Uncle, I've worked a lot with both brass and bronze. If the inlays are coming out, the problem is the kamis are not cleaning the area well enough and/or not fluxing the inlay area. That's really the only reason it would not hold. Brass is very malable(flexable)and will adhere to steel quite well, so using the Kuk, no matter how hard you chop, will not make the brass come loose. Tell Gelbu to have a "SHOP MEETING".
 
I think cleaning is probably the problem. Durba is very popular and consequently very busy right now so I'm guessing cleaning quickly and not very well could be the answer. But as stated, we'll get it fixed better than new for no cost.
 
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I haven't had any experience with replacing the inlay so I can't say.

I was under the impression that the brass is pounded in and then the steel peened over the edges.
At least that's the way it appears on a village model I have that lost its inlay, but it's maybe because the village kamis don't use the same method that BirGhorka does.
But that appears to be the method from some pix I have seen.

But I sorta doubt that the brass is soldered in as I think the blade is hardened first, but only the kamis can say for certain.:)
I doubt that it would mess with the hardening being that high up on the blade but again, only the kamis know for certain.:)
 
I'm not sure, either, Bro. Next time I go over I'll make a list of things to watch the kamis do. But a clean blade makes for better results no matter which way they go.
 
Hi Yvsa, The brass wouldn't be soldered in, it would just be melted in. I would do it during the hardening/tempering process. I think critical heat for steel is around 1500 degrees, brass melts at around 1000 degrees. So if they "carved" the design, did the heat treating and at the tempering stage melt in some brazing rod. At final grinding and polishing would flush up the steel and brass. Thats how I would do it "if" I were making kuks Nepal style. Just theorizing.
 
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I used the wrong word Gewi. And yes you're exactly rightt.:D
And Uncle Bill's right as well as a clean anything always works better.:)

Originally posted by Bill Martino
I'd ask the kamis how they do it but they'd probably lie to me.
Click to expand...

Shop help the world over is all the same. I get tickled at the similarities of the kami's work and the same things I used to do in the shops when I was working.:)

I would like to know for sure about this though just for giggles and grins.:D
The only thing I have for a reference is the one pic where I saw a kami pounding the brass into the carved hollow made to hold it. And the blade wasn't hot when he was doing it as he was holding part of the knife with his feet.
I think most metal inlay the world over is done without brazing or soldering since so much of the work is very close together and so very intricate but having no first hand knowledge of it I don't
know.
It would be interesting to find out though and when I get more familiar with the computer and get everything transfered I may do a search in my spare time to see if I can find out anything.
Any information would be very helpful.:)
 
Just recovered from looking at the inlay on my 14" Jag & Prem Sirupati, with a very strong glass. First, the precision of the engraving and stamping is amazing. Whichever did this has great eyes, whatever his age. The pattern that was inlaid is a series of CUT (not stamped) arrowheads or darts. It appears that they were completely filled, until the blade was buffed. The lower barbs on one side have lost some brass, as have the upper barbs on the other side, in turning the blade over to buff the other side. There is one very tiny spot, in and above the top engraved groove of the sword, that looks like a stray droplet liquid brass got away, and was cleaned up with a chisel. Without the glass, it is invisible, but at 7X, under strong light, there is still a glint of brass in the groove and the scratches.
I wish I had my grandson's 12" Sanu for side-by-side comparison, but this one looks as though the inlay was done hot (probably the brass, but not the blade). The buffing has cleaned up any other possible clues, but there is no evidence of the steel having been peened over to hold the brass - the cut edges of the barbs on the arrowheads are sharp and clear, where the buffing wheel has removed the brass. Jag & Prem are (more or less) fresh from the village, and there is little doubt they are doing their stuff "the old way". Now all we have to figure out, is how many "old ways" are there ? :D
 
This is pure theory, but, i just looked at the brass inlay of my 15"Sirupati and think the carving was done hot, just baecause the marks are too smooth. Engraving (cold) usualy leaves a "V" shape at the beginning and end of each cut. However the arrowheads are not regular enough to be stamped.
Here is my guess work. Decorative metal work in low tech society was frequently done with a method called re'pousse, sorry about the spelling, but it means "to push". Usually done on, say Celtic masks and such, thin metal was pushed into a carved mold using plugs, wedges, chisels, whatever fit the shape.
Now a little far flung, but based on my observation working on boats, different materials react to stress, well, differently. We used to use this great stuff called Marine**ech to fix cracks on the Fiberglass of our Boston Whaler and 41' UTB's, until we had a cold (for Louisiana) winter, and the Marine*(&tch plugs popped clean out of the fiberglass. Why? Because the materials expand and contract at entirely different rates.
So, what my BMramblings really mean, is 1) I support the peened over idea, and it doesn't always work because of polishing, and 2)I could be talking out my stern.
Reyna is the one who went to college, not me.
Sar
 
I have one "last" thought on this inlay thing. Listening to what Uncle, Yvsa and Wal have said is it possible that the Kamis undercut the carving for the inlay so it would hold better, thats why the finer detail work would have more of a tendancy to loose the brass(because its so shallow it can't be undercut) So, the brass is set in hot then before final grinding and polishing it is hammered to really set it in the blade. There's two more cents. See Ya!
 
Oh, by the way, gotso excited spouting out the posterior that I forgot to ask: Is it possible to get pictures of the tools used to carve handles and the engraving/ stamping of blades posted in forums?
I keep wanting to blame it all on the tools!
Sar
 
I don't think brass and steel would adhere unless both are heated. Did some soldering and brazing awhile back and it was important to get to that critical temp for the braze or solder. Now, If the steel is undercut or peened over it would work. Do the Kamis have the ability to heat a very specific portion of metal, say with a torch or clay wrap like the Japanese smith's?
Sar
 
I ALWAYS blame it on the tools, even if a sticky keyboard doesn't excuse inanity. Anyway, the barbs on my engraving are definately not undercut - in fact, a couple of the clearer ones are about 30° the opposite way, and the brass "end" is clearly broken off, as the buffer "picked" at the sharp corner. I wouldn't be at all surprised if each kami has his own way, or combination of ways, to set his brass inlays. There are obviously several ways to do it, and people who have been doing it in one family for over 400 years know them all. And, they may well vary their methods depending on how the steel feels to them as they work it. I'm still puzzled by how they cut such fine groves in the handles. I need an Alka Seltzer :rolleyes:
 
Wal, to tell you the truth after watching some of them work steel I have to believe there may be some magic in those hammers. The only problem is when I use the hammer it loses its magic.
 
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