First GEC (#43): Disappointing fit, finish and back spring

[Copperberry]

As a new porch dweller and relatively new knife collector, I certainly empathize with the OP. I felt the same way when my micarta #43 (also my first GEC knife) arrived and I popped it out of the tube -- I had spent months reading so many rave reviews of GEC products that my expectations were unreasonably high.

The fine folks here on the porch have done a number of things to assuage my initial disappointment, firstly by helping me to manage my expectations. I think knifeswapper hit the nail on the head a few posts up regarding the GEC factory producing knives on 80-year-old equipment, and I find that I'm still learning what is and what is not considered acceptable for a brand new traditional knife. I now think of the little quirks that each knife comes with as a reminder that these are still handmade by hard-working folks, and that every knife you will receive is unique.

Next, and it's been mentioned here a few times already, but I've learned to do light maintenance and repairs on my traditional knives through reading posts on the forum. This has become one of my favorite parts of the hobby, actually. The first thing I do now when a new knife comes in the mail is bring it out to the shed, give it a full inspection, flush the joint with WD-40 and add a few drops of 3-in-1 oil, then get to work buffing out any scuff marks or whatever other minor repairs I feel it needs before giving it a good stropping. After going through this process it is no longer just a knife -- it becomes MY knife. I understand that some people don't want to muck with their new knives in case they end up selling them. To each their own, I suppose, but I buy and collect knives for me and my own enjoyment!

And by the way, my initial #43 exhibited most of the issues the OP mentioned above (plus some blade rap) and after a little work and a shift in perspective, it has become one of my all time favorite knives!

 

[hamsco]

I don't see anything other than the spring strength in the original post that is any different than any knife GEC/Queen/Bulldog/Fight'n Rooster made in the last 30 years. These knives are not laser cut, tumbled for days, etc. They are stamped out and assembled as a tool.

• It is called "under-bladed"; because it takes a lot of time to perfectly match them up and the factory definitely does not want the blade higher than the spring.
• The only tuning done here is for the set depth; otherwise it is a non-functional aspect.
• Again, non-functional and not ground / buffed for that reason.
• I do wish they would buff these right before the tube them; but the soft NS rubs others on the trays.
• Action was documented in discussions the last month or so as light on the 43; the 71 is going to go to the other extreme.

For reasons unknown (I have my opinion), the expectations have increased dramatically as of the last 10 years. But these guys trying to pay $20+/hr and make a knife on 80 y/o equipment, in an 80 y/o fashion, are never going to accommodate these types of expectations. It doesn't make them defects, it just means they can't / won't meet your expectations.

There are other issues that show up across the board that are actual defects or at least the process needs tuned. But it is not really fair for us to place brand new requirements on makers today, that were never a requirement in the past. Once the folks that appreciate the old style slipjoints fade away - so will the factories like GEC.

Good post Mike

 

[jc57]

rave reviews of GEC products that my expectations were unreasonably high.

the little quirks that each knife comes with as a reminder that these are still handmade by hard-working folks, and that every knife you will receive is unique.

light maintenance and repairs on my traditional knives through reading posts on the forum. This has become one of my favorite parts of the hobby

it becomes MY knife

I buy and collect knives for me and my own enjoyment!

Pardon my selective quoting of your post, but I just wanted to call out that you have followed the path to true enlightenment in a very short period of time.

 

[edgecentricity]

Wow, a lot of comments have come in since I last checked this thread! I appreciate everyone's thoughts.

In regard to some of my initial complaints about finish -- scuffs on the bolsters, blade and shield -- I'm already almost over that. It's just kind of irksome to find on a brand-new product, and easy to overreact at first glance. And the small chip could be filed out. I do think that some of these forums encourage a sort of knives-as-jewelry mindset. My current EDC blade is now covered in scratches. At first, it was like, "Argh, no!" Now, it's more like, "Meh, whatever. It's sharp and cuts well." But it's easy to get caught up in over-analysis, especially for those who tend toward obsession and perfectionism.

Right now, two primary issues remain:

• The the back spring that sits proud of the blade spine when the knife is open (as shown in knifeswapper's post -- thanks for that; I'm not set up to take a good picture of the knife right now) -- maybe I have a sensitive thumb, but that drop from spring to spine doesn't feel good with my thumb extended (which how I hold a knife most of the time).

• The weak-feeling back spring and walk and talk. I can easily push the blade fully closed, one-handed, with my thumb. No, I'm not using the spine of the knife to cut, but such a light spring doesn't inspire confidence.

The vendor invited me to open and close the knife a few dozen times, to see if the action improves. I've done so, but to minimal effect. If I knew for certain that I wanted to keep the #43, I'd have cleaned and oiled it by now, but am hesitant; I wouldn't be able to return it after it. 'Buzz, I'm happy to hear that doing so worked well for you.

Anyhow, you all make good points; I know this isn't a multi-hundred dollar custom, and can appreciate that GEC aims to provide a living wage.

 

[edgecentricity]

Ha, thanks for the list! I've already got a lot of those things on hand; tinkering is not new to me. I've wanted a Dremel for quite some time, though, and don't yet have one.

Most everything listed below is very inexpensive and will come in handy to maintain the fit & finish of your knives

------

GEC Pocketknife *tube lottery* Survival Kit

Cream toothpaste (non abrasive)
Soft & medium toothbrushes
Extra fine steel wool
1000 and/or higher grit sandpaper
Wooden Popsicle sticks
Mineral oil
WD-40
Q tips
Pipe cleaners
Small jewelers file(s)
Simichrome or Flitz polish
Bark river white compound
Soft goat leather cloth


Advanced Items

Dremel
Ultrasonic

------

This is a great hobby! Hope you continue buying GEC's

 

[Copperberry]

Pardon my selective quoting of your post, but I just wanted to call out that you have followed the path to true enlightenment in a very short period of time.

Ha! Well, I appreciate that. I'm certainly still learning here, but that's part of the fun too eh? This hobby gets better and better all the time, but it sure would be lonely without you fine folks to share it with!

 

[glennbad]

I can appreciate that GEC knives aren't considered customs. That being said, most of the ones I have handled have a high amount of fit and finish, and are pretty close to custom. That is what I have come to expect out of their shop.

To me, the proud spring may be a legit concern, how are they on other GEC's, any other user feedback? I don't recall this issue on the ones that I own.

The scuffs on the shield/bolster, if from the factory, are not acceptable. The other issues, as others have said, are common from most knife factories.

As much as I appreciate some fun tinkering with knives, nobody should have to alter or tinker with their new knives to get them to perform right out of the tube. There was much criticism of companies like CSC and Queen for issues like this, and GEC should be held to the same standard. There should be no excuse-making for any potential slip in QC from any company, we've seen where that can lead.

 

[knifeswapper]

To me, the proud spring may be a legit concern, how are they on other GEC's, any other user feedback? I don't recall this issue on the ones that I own.

The scuffs on the shield/bolster, if from the factory, are not acceptable.

Look at your knives for a perfectly flush blade/backspring in full open. Maybe 5% are close enough to call flush - but if you are looking for a Case/Bose collab connect, you are out of luck on a GEC. Not even something they are trying to do.

Small swirl scratches are the same story. If you look close enough, they are there on 95% of factory knives I see. A $50 buffer would solve this problem from now on; but if it not acceptable - so are most all GEC knives. This one would be remedied by buffing the knife right before tubing; but with this issue being mentioned once every several thousand knives - probably not something they want to reorganize over.

The key to both of these issues, and probably the reason you haven't noticed them, is how hard you are looking for them.

 

[glennbad]

That is why the OP pics of the "scuffs" would have been helpful. One person's scuffs are another person's factory handling swirls...

 

[edgecentricity]

That is why the OP pics of the "scuffs" would have been helpful. One person's scuffs are another person's factory handling swirls...

Sorry I wasn't able to take pictures; I'll try n' do better if I post a criticism of something like this again, though! I'm planning to send the knife back; rather a pity, as I no longer care about the scuffs (or whatever they are) -- though I'd have preferred the knife came without them -- or the small chip; it's just the proud back spring (or low blade spine, if you will) that bothers my thumb, and the weak spring, that are putting me off.

I'm planning to get a Bullnose in exchange, which will almost certainly have a stronger, and, I hope, more flush back spring. FWIW, my 20-dollar Ka-Bar Dozier (though a mid-lock, rather than a slip joint) has a lock bar that's much closer to flush with the blade spine than this #43. Granted, though Ka-Bar likely didn't build the Dozier on 80-year old equipment, it would nice if a greater degree of flushness could be achieved on GEC knife that costs nearly four times as much. I know, I know, overseas vs. US labor and all that...

I look forward to trying the #71. Many thanks to all those who have/are contributing to this thread.

 

[Jfowl31]

I can appreciate that GEC knives aren't considered customs. That being said, most of the ones I have handled have a high amount of fit and finish, and are pretty close to custom. That is what I have come to expect out of their shop.

To me, the proud spring may be a legit concern, how are they on other GEC's, any other user feedback? I don't recall this issue on the ones that I own.

The scuffs on the shield/bolster, if from the factory, are not acceptable. The other issues, as others have said, are common from most knife factories.

As much as I appreciate some fun tinkering with knives, nobody should have to alter or tinker with their new knives to get them to perform right out of the tube. There was much criticism of companies like CSC and Queen for issues like this, and GEC should be held to the same standard. There should be no excuse-making for any potential slip in QC from any company, we've seen where that can lead.

He's not describing a proud spring. He's talking about the spine of the blade sitting below the spring at open. GECs are designed this way and literally every single one ever made sits like this. In fact, on 2 blades, the secondary will sit lower than the main.

As Mike explained earlier, every single "issue" from the OP is perfectly normal minus the soft spring and perhaps the scuffs. The scuffs is easily remedied with some buffing. The soft spring was very common on the 43s...

 

[Copperberry]

Sorry I wasn't able to take pictures; I'll try n' do better if I post a criticism of something like this again, though! I'm planning to send the knife back; rather a pity, as I no longer care about the scuffs (or whatever they are) -- though I'd have preferred the knife came without them -- or the small chip; it's just the proud back spring (or low blade spine, if you will) that bothers my thumb, and the weak spring, that are putting me off.

I'm planning to get a Bullnose in exchange, which will almost certainly have a stronger, and, I hope, more flush back spring. FWIW, my 20-dollar Ka-Bar Dozier (though a mid-lock, rather than a slip joint) has a lock bar that's much closer to flush with the blade spine than this #43. Granted, though Ka-Bar likely didn't build the Dozier on 80-year old equipment, it would nice if a greater degree of flushness could be achieved on GEC knife that costs nearly four times as much. I know, I know, overseas vs. US labor and all that...

I look forward to trying the #71. Many thanks to all those who have/are contributing to this thread.

Just a heads up, I just checked and the spine of my 71 is pretty far from flush with the backspring. So then I went to my chest o’ knives and pulled out all of my slip joints and confirmed that very few of them are totally flush, with about half of the blades sitting notably below the backsprings. Not even something I thought to check before. Guess it doesn’t bother me any. My Bullnose certainly does have a stiffer back spring though!

Also, my 71 was super mushy and gritty feeling out of the tube — even with the strong pull. Don’t be discouraged! A little WD-40 and a few drops of 3-in-1 oil, coupled with a few dozen openings and it’s action is smooth and the talk is crisp.

 

[knifeswapper]

Here's a Bullnose from this run if it will help.

 

[supratentorial]

At least 2 of my hypotheses are holding up! The Dozier is made very differently than the GEC. See this topic: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...knife-manufacturing-past-and-present.1507023/
I highly recommend watching the GEC tour videos in that link.

Here's a quick look at manufacturing for EC Simmons 100 years ago. Not the same as GEC but more similar than the manufacturing of the Dozier in Taiwan for Kabar.

 

[Will Power]

Underblading is OK in my book as it doesn't impact on the 'feel' of the knife. See the CK Bullnose pic. If the bolsters,springs are all in line and flush flat on open and closed that's what I want. If they are sunk or one or more springs are raised then my thumb catches on them and the knife won't feel or look well made. At half stop I don't mind, if it's flush there it's a quality bonus.

I don't think any of my GEC knives suffer from raised or sunk springs on open, quite a few CASE, Queen knives have it and one CS knife has horrible sunk spring on open that feels sharp & unfinished against the thumb. I'm still uncertain WHAT the OP has as he say's it's like Mike's picture but then says it doesn't feel right with thumb extended?

Anyway, the knife's returned as the spring sounds defective. I think glennbad is absolutely right when he says that in the past other knife companied have come in for stick over F&F issues and GEC needs to be viewed the same and not just telling people to expect deficiencies and just use it and be glad about it. GEC uses the word premium let's not forget, and mostly they are justified in that.

 

[edgecentricity]

Hey all,

I think "underbladed" was the term I should have used to describe how the blade spine sits below back spring when the knife is open. The back spring is flush with the liners, bolster and scales in open and closed positions, and almost flush at half-stop. That little drop from spring to spine does affect the feel of the knife for me; I think my thumbs are extra sensitive to stuff like that. (Now, whether that sensitivity stems from a purely physical response, or is driven by the expectation that everything on what's marketed as a premium slip joint should be flush is another question, ha.)

 

[glennbad]

I would agree that most factory knives suffer from the "underblade" issue. I misinterpreted the OP description. The weak spring issue...it's hard to find that sweet spot. GEC took grief for nail-breaking springs, so it seems perhaps that they tweaked that some. Now there are complaints about soft springs. No-win situation...

 

[knifeswapper]

Anyway, the knife's returned as the spring sounds defective. I think glennbad is absolutely right when he says that in the past other knife companied have come in for stick over F&F issues and GEC needs to be viewed the same and not just telling people to expect deficiencies and just use it and be glad about it. GEC uses the word premium let's not forget, and mostly they are justified in that.

Spring pressure, from very light to very tight, is a scale. If we are going to declare a "4" and a "8" are now "defective" - someone needs to inform the factories. The light spring pressure on the #43 has been discussed right in this sub-forum. So, if the dealer themselves don't disclose it to their customers, it will be a surprise for someone who does not participate in BladeForums. But it is tough for someone to post here about this being a surprise when there is another thread specifically about this pattern and the light action mentioned prominently. And it is on the "weak side", not that the blade doesn't have its own action or doesn't stay open / closed - it is simply not as strong a spring as the OP expected.

I concur, that the #43 has a light action. I am convinced it is more of a tight pivot joint and in need of a flush than actual spring strength - but the action is light. And if the OP doesn't like that, he should definitely not keep the knife. But it is not a defect, it is a preference. And I feel certain GEC will tune it a bit if they ever make the pattern again - as they have with every other pattern they have made multiple times.

 

[Will Power]

I understood the OP as being dissatisfied by a weak spring that had poor W&T, I must have been mistaken then.

It is a surprise that a bigger pattern like the 43 was made with light action actually, I realize GEC is trying to vary pull strengths but I tend to associate larger knives with more burly action. I haven't tried one and I won't as I prefer the size of the 73 and its lack of lanyard hole. Those 73s generally have a strong spring

 

[22-rimfire]

Look at your knives for a perfectly flush blade/backspring in full open. Maybe 5% are close enough to call flush - but if you are looking for a Case/Bose collab connect, you are out of luck on a GEC. Not even something they are trying to do.

Small swirl scratches are the same story. If you look close enough, they are there on 95% of factory knives I see. A $50 buffer would solve this problem from now on; but if it not acceptable - so are most all GEC knives. This one would be remedied by buffing the knife right before tubing; but with this issue being mentioned once every several thousand knives - probably not something they want to reorganize over.

The key to both of these issues, and probably the reason you haven't noticed them, is how hard you are looking for them.

Folks that don't have much experience with GEC made knives need to just be aware these are not custom knives. We or I have over time upped my expectations a bit, but I think some things simply aren't reasonable expectations. I don't look "hard" for problems with my GEC made knives.

My first GEC made slippie had a horendously strong spring to the point I needed a pliers to open the blade. Shouldn't be that way. But had I formed my impression of GEC solely based on that knife, I would have missed a lot of good product.

The one that always sticks out for me is blade sharpness and in particular the grind on the edge. I'm not happy if the brand new knife is not sharp out of the box and I don't expect a chisel grind when it supposed to be flat ground. One of my forum knives was like this and I was unhappy.... eventually I just fixed it myself. But I still feel that I shouldn't have had to do that. I'm not a collector but I know the mindset and I took a collectible knife and made it a user with my re-profile. That might not mean much to some, but if I decide I am not going to use the knife for any reason, I have some minimal expectations.

Blade centering.... GEC does a good job overall and I can tolerate a little off center "centering", but not extreme.

Snap is real important to me. Been pleased overall, but the #43 was a bit weak for a large GEC slippie. Mine was lighter than many SAKs I own. This is one of the reasons I have strayed away from Case products. I buy them occasionally at a knife store where I can inspect them individually. There is a new large Case that has attracted my attention, but I'm hesitant to even go past "attracted" due to the snap issue. I expect WEAK and I shouldn't have that expectation.