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First handgun advice
- Thread starter moshow9
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That's how I carry mine. No problems.
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Thanks harkamus! I failed to think of having the magazine separated.
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You have recieved a LOT of good advice so far, and here's mine.
First BEFORE you take the TX CHL class, go find a NRA Basic Pistol course and take it. Shoud be about $100 - $150, but that is money VERY well spent. Do this in addition to the free safety course you are taking. Next, try and find a range (or some buddies) where you can try several different pistols before buying. Finally, IMHO you would be hard pressed to beat a Springfield XD or a Glock for your first pistol. I won't preach what model (size) or caliber, but don't let anyone tell you 9mm isn't enough. For a first pistol, 9mm is a really good choice both due to lower ammo cost (more practice), and being easier to shoot. Also, most modern 147 grain 9mm hollow point rounds ARE quite effective (look at Federal HST, Speer Gold Dot, or Winchester Ranger T as great options).
If you are going to carry concealed, IWB is a great option, so long as you get a GOOD holster (if it isn't comfortable, you will NOT wear it). I would highly recommend an all-leather Milt Sparks Versa-Max 2 (my personal choice), but the wait time right now is atrocious at 6-7 months. Another option many people like is a Crossbreed Supertuck, though it is a leather and kydex hybrid design, but they don't have much wait and they have a 30 day try it and like it or return it guarantee. DO NOT SKIMP on the holster, or you will end up with a pile of unused holsters you don't like. Just spend the money up front and get a good one.
I think you will find after awhile that you will end up buying several different carry guns. Personally, I have .45, .40, 9mm, and .32 carry pistols, all but one riding in custom gunleather (the two larger calibers in Sparks VM2's). The one I carry depends on the weather, the activity I expect from the day, where I will be going, etc. Having options is nice. Honestly though, if I had to recommend one for you, I would say an XD subcompact 9mm or Glock 26 (pick your posion here - they fit and feel different, but both are great firearms). While they ARE small guns, in 9mm they are not hard to handle and they conceal well. I think it would be hard for you to find something better for all-around, especially as a first gun that you are also going to carry.
First BEFORE you take the TX CHL class, go find a NRA Basic Pistol course and take it. Shoud be about $100 - $150, but that is money VERY well spent. Do this in addition to the free safety course you are taking. Next, try and find a range (or some buddies) where you can try several different pistols before buying. Finally, IMHO you would be hard pressed to beat a Springfield XD or a Glock for your first pistol. I won't preach what model (size) or caliber, but don't let anyone tell you 9mm isn't enough. For a first pistol, 9mm is a really good choice both due to lower ammo cost (more practice), and being easier to shoot. Also, most modern 147 grain 9mm hollow point rounds ARE quite effective (look at Federal HST, Speer Gold Dot, or Winchester Ranger T as great options).
If you are going to carry concealed, IWB is a great option, so long as you get a GOOD holster (if it isn't comfortable, you will NOT wear it). I would highly recommend an all-leather Milt Sparks Versa-Max 2 (my personal choice), but the wait time right now is atrocious at 6-7 months. Another option many people like is a Crossbreed Supertuck, though it is a leather and kydex hybrid design, but they don't have much wait and they have a 30 day try it and like it or return it guarantee. DO NOT SKIMP on the holster, or you will end up with a pile of unused holsters you don't like. Just spend the money up front and get a good one.
I think you will find after awhile that you will end up buying several different carry guns. Personally, I have .45, .40, 9mm, and .32 carry pistols, all but one riding in custom gunleather (the two larger calibers in Sparks VM2's). The one I carry depends on the weather, the activity I expect from the day, where I will be going, etc. Having options is nice. Honestly though, if I had to recommend one for you, I would say an XD subcompact 9mm or Glock 26 (pick your posion here - they fit and feel different, but both are great firearms). While they ARE small guns, in 9mm they are not hard to handle and they conceal well. I think it would be hard for you to find something better for all-around, especially as a first gun that you are also going to carry.
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Made it out and spent some time at the local gun show this morning. Parking wasn't an issue and the $5 admittance fee was cheaper that what I thought it would be. I had hoped to take some pictures but camera's were not allowed without prior written permission. My first thought was wow! There were lots of tables, people and gear. I have to admit I didn't pay any attention to the tables displaying rifles or their accessories. I saw one table that had a few small SAK's displayed and a couple of other tables with knives (Kershaw, Smith & Wesson First Response, etc). Nothing on the high end.
I made my way to the left and came up to a table that had a few Ruger's. I briefly checked out a P94 but weight and cost were more than I liked. I tried to find a P95 (I've read some good things about it, aside from being a bit wide) but didn't come across one at any of the other tables. I worked my way further around on the outside first. The next table I came up to had a few Kahr models, they were tiny, thin and lightweight. I'd like to shoot one and possibly own one down the road, but holding one helped me realize this is not one I would want to own as my first handgun. A couple of tables over had some Sigs. A Sig P250 was on my list as one to check out but it was not here. Towards the end of this row there was a gentleman demonstrating the Cell Pal. It seems interesting but I would rather go with something else (Crossbreed or other). I worked my way to the inner tables. I found one that had a few 1911's. While they were in .45, they fit very good in hand.
I next found a table from Sharp Shooters Knife & Gun, out of Lubbock. This is where I spent the majority of my time. They had about 6 or 8 tables with Sig Sauer, Springfield Armory, Glock, Smith & Wesson, and some 1911's. The Sig's were mainly P238's. I'm sure there were some others there, only I was very short on time when I came to them I had to do a drive bye looksee. The P238's are smaller than what I thought they would be and something I would also like to shoot and possibly own down the line. After getting some full size guns in hand (something I didn't do when I initially went to check out the Glock 26) I have decided to not get a sub compact handgun at this time. In sub compact, I found I liked the way the Springfield XD fit in hand without it's finger grooves compared to the Glock 26. However, I do like the way the Glock 19 felt in hand with the finger grooves. I also got to spend some time handling the M&P, which also is light and good in hand.
As an aside, the 45 M&P was off of it's security line. I can't say that I noticed any video cameras (cctv). While there were some police officers walking the aisles, I guess it might be possible for someone to walk off with it if no one were looking. I let the gentleman from Sharp Shooters know about it.
All in all it was a good experience. I wish I had had more time to spend there and look forward to going to future gun shows. I spoke with a few people there and all recommended going with 9mm over .22 for my first time pistol. I know it's been a bit mixed with regards to this in the thread but I'm leaning towards 9mm. Question is whether that will be with a Glock 19, Smith & Wesson M&P, or a 1911 (RIA). Hopefully I'll be able to shoot these (either in class or by renting).
I made my way to the left and came up to a table that had a few Ruger's. I briefly checked out a P94 but weight and cost were more than I liked. I tried to find a P95 (I've read some good things about it, aside from being a bit wide) but didn't come across one at any of the other tables. I worked my way further around on the outside first. The next table I came up to had a few Kahr models, they were tiny, thin and lightweight. I'd like to shoot one and possibly own one down the road, but holding one helped me realize this is not one I would want to own as my first handgun. A couple of tables over had some Sigs. A Sig P250 was on my list as one to check out but it was not here. Towards the end of this row there was a gentleman demonstrating the Cell Pal. It seems interesting but I would rather go with something else (Crossbreed or other). I worked my way to the inner tables. I found one that had a few 1911's. While they were in .45, they fit very good in hand.
I next found a table from Sharp Shooters Knife & Gun, out of Lubbock. This is where I spent the majority of my time. They had about 6 or 8 tables with Sig Sauer, Springfield Armory, Glock, Smith & Wesson, and some 1911's. The Sig's were mainly P238's. I'm sure there were some others there, only I was very short on time when I came to them I had to do a drive bye looksee. The P238's are smaller than what I thought they would be and something I would also like to shoot and possibly own down the line. After getting some full size guns in hand (something I didn't do when I initially went to check out the Glock 26) I have decided to not get a sub compact handgun at this time. In sub compact, I found I liked the way the Springfield XD fit in hand without it's finger grooves compared to the Glock 26. However, I do like the way the Glock 19 felt in hand with the finger grooves. I also got to spend some time handling the M&P, which also is light and good in hand.
As an aside, the 45 M&P was off of it's security line. I can't say that I noticed any video cameras (cctv). While there were some police officers walking the aisles, I guess it might be possible for someone to walk off with it if no one were looking. I let the gentleman from Sharp Shooters know about it.
All in all it was a good experience. I wish I had had more time to spend there and look forward to going to future gun shows. I spoke with a few people there and all recommended going with 9mm over .22 for my first time pistol. I know it's been a bit mixed with regards to this in the thread but I'm leaning towards 9mm. Question is whether that will be with a Glock 19, Smith & Wesson M&P, or a 1911 (RIA). Hopefully I'll be able to shoot these (either in class or by renting).
ElConquistador
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Sounds like you had a good time. The best part of gun shows around here is the watching the weirdos that seem to frequent them. We've got the SASS types... ...grown men who dress up as cowboys (never will understand that one), the commando types... ...camo mullets, look like they have a bomb shelter in the basement and rifles buried in the yard, etc. it's like going to Wal-Mart only better.
Of the guns you list the Glock is what I would go with. It's by far and away the most popular so sights, magazines, holsters, and other stuff will be very easy to find for it. Glock has by far the best trigger of the plastic guns... ...take up, definite breaking point, and very short reset. The Glock used to be radical, totally different than anything else at the time it came out, it's gotten to where now it's kind of boring and plain looking compared to the new comers like M&P, XD, PX4, SIG Pro, etc. The Glock may not be as flashy as some of the others but it is also boringly reliable, it just works. They've just come out with a Gen4 that has an interchangeable backstrap like the XD.
The M&P would be my second choice of the guns you listed. The Melonite finish is good stuff, as good as Glock's Tenifer from what I've read. S&W stand behind their product, probably the best customer service in the industry. Other than that there's nothing that really stands out about the M&P, it's just another gun to me. When they first came out I shot some with a guy that had one in .40... ...he ended up having to send it in to be fixed because it kept dropping mags, several people tried it and it would every once in while just dump the mag sometimes it would fall out and some times it would drop just enough that the slide wouldn't pick up the next round and it would "click" instead of "bang"... ...I'm sure they've probably got this issue resolved now but my first impression of the M&P wasn't great.
1911s in general can be finicky, that goes double for a 9mm 1911. I'd stay away from this one, especially for your first gun.
Of the guns you list the Glock is what I would go with. It's by far and away the most popular so sights, magazines, holsters, and other stuff will be very easy to find for it. Glock has by far the best trigger of the plastic guns... ...take up, definite breaking point, and very short reset. The Glock used to be radical, totally different than anything else at the time it came out, it's gotten to where now it's kind of boring and plain looking compared to the new comers like M&P, XD, PX4, SIG Pro, etc. The Glock may not be as flashy as some of the others but it is also boringly reliable, it just works. They've just come out with a Gen4 that has an interchangeable backstrap like the XD.
The M&P would be my second choice of the guns you listed. The Melonite finish is good stuff, as good as Glock's Tenifer from what I've read. S&W stand behind their product, probably the best customer service in the industry. Other than that there's nothing that really stands out about the M&P, it's just another gun to me. When they first came out I shot some with a guy that had one in .40... ...he ended up having to send it in to be fixed because it kept dropping mags, several people tried it and it would every once in while just dump the mag sometimes it would fall out and some times it would drop just enough that the slide wouldn't pick up the next round and it would "click" instead of "bang"... ...I'm sure they've probably got this issue resolved now but my first impression of the M&P wasn't great.
1911s in general can be finicky, that goes double for a 9mm 1911. I'd stay away from this one, especially for your first gun.
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Stay clear from a 9mm 1911 unless you want a "fun gun" that you don't want to have to depend on. If you want one that works, be prepared to spend many times what you'd pay for a Glock or M&P. The only 9mm 1911 styled gun that gets lots of endorsement is the Spec Ops 9 from Wilson Combat, which will set you back 1800.
As I said before, I'd recommend starting at 9mm instead of .22. The .22 is such a tame beast with almost no recoil that going to a 9mm will be an eye opener for you. Basically a .22 will let you learn gun handling without the recoil, something you can do on 9mm as well if you commit the time to practice dry firing.
Remember this, pulling the trigger is nothing if you cannot keep the sight lined up after the bullet exits the barrel. Really, a good trigger pull is not as easy as one would think. It takes practice. More food for thought. A full size handgun depending on material will weigh around 1.5 pounds loaded to close to 3 pounds loaded. Most handguns have a single action trigger pull of around 5 pounds. Gunsmiths can bring that down to 3 pounds, lower if you shoot competition, but most gunsmiths will only put <3 pound trigger pulls on guns for competitive shooters. Double action triggers are closer to 10 pounds, not counting special triggers like H&K LEM trigger or Sig Sauer's double action kellerman. Now, if you have a trigger pull of 3 pounds and a gun that weighs less than that, it becomes very easy to push the gun in some direction that will point the muzzle away from your point of aim. This is because you have to use more force to pull the trigger than the gun actually weighs.
I hope this illustrates the importance of practicing a trigger pull when you're not on the range shooting live rounds. It goes without saying that one of the first things you should buy after you buy a handgun, besides a set of cleaning supplies, is a couple of snap caps.
EDIT: Also, if you can't shoot some of the guns you were looking at in class, ask the dealer if you can dry fire so you can at least get a feel for the trigger. Glocks feel horrible to me for example, not only in hand, but also the trigger.
EDIT2: I'd like to add that the money you'd save on not buying a .22 could be used to buy ammo for a 9 or for paying for gun classes should you go that route.
As I said before, I'd recommend starting at 9mm instead of .22. The .22 is such a tame beast with almost no recoil that going to a 9mm will be an eye opener for you. Basically a .22 will let you learn gun handling without the recoil, something you can do on 9mm as well if you commit the time to practice dry firing.
Remember this, pulling the trigger is nothing if you cannot keep the sight lined up after the bullet exits the barrel. Really, a good trigger pull is not as easy as one would think. It takes practice. More food for thought. A full size handgun depending on material will weigh around 1.5 pounds loaded to close to 3 pounds loaded. Most handguns have a single action trigger pull of around 5 pounds. Gunsmiths can bring that down to 3 pounds, lower if you shoot competition, but most gunsmiths will only put <3 pound trigger pulls on guns for competitive shooters. Double action triggers are closer to 10 pounds, not counting special triggers like H&K LEM trigger or Sig Sauer's double action kellerman. Now, if you have a trigger pull of 3 pounds and a gun that weighs less than that, it becomes very easy to push the gun in some direction that will point the muzzle away from your point of aim. This is because you have to use more force to pull the trigger than the gun actually weighs.
I hope this illustrates the importance of practicing a trigger pull when you're not on the range shooting live rounds. It goes without saying that one of the first things you should buy after you buy a handgun, besides a set of cleaning supplies, is a couple of snap caps.
EDIT: Also, if you can't shoot some of the guns you were looking at in class, ask the dealer if you can dry fire so you can at least get a feel for the trigger. Glocks feel horrible to me for example, not only in hand, but also the trigger.
EDIT2: I'd like to add that the money you'd save on not buying a .22 could be used to buy ammo for a 9 or for paying for gun classes should you go that route.
Last edited:
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No one handgun will fit all scenarios.
I carry a .380 pocket pistol when I walk the dog.
I have a .357 revolver for my house gun (don't have to worry about spring fatigue leaving it loaded for a long period of time). I know, some will argue this point...
I take a .45 auto in my car when I travel.
In favor of a revolver: simple (no safety), reliable, and safe (easier to know if it is loaded or unloaded).
Whatever you buy, practice. Not just for accuracy, but to make sure you are familiar with the safety, etc. You should know whether it will fire without the magazine (many Brownings will not).
Decide on personal preferences: a utility gun with polymer and stainless or a sexy gun with wood grips and bluing.
"Beware of the man who only owns one gun; he probably knows how to use it."
Trying out firearms at the range is very good advice.
M.
I carry a .380 pocket pistol when I walk the dog.
I have a .357 revolver for my house gun (don't have to worry about spring fatigue leaving it loaded for a long period of time). I know, some will argue this point...
I take a .45 auto in my car when I travel.
In favor of a revolver: simple (no safety), reliable, and safe (easier to know if it is loaded or unloaded).
Whatever you buy, practice. Not just for accuracy, but to make sure you are familiar with the safety, etc. You should know whether it will fire without the magazine (many Brownings will not).
Decide on personal preferences: a utility gun with polymer and stainless or a sexy gun with wood grips and bluing.
"Beware of the man who only owns one gun; he probably knows how to use it."
Trying out firearms at the range is very good advice.
M.
Pick few handguns and try them! Plenty of ranges rent firearms. What works for me, or someone else here,...may not work for you. I would suggest you one thing: Do not purchase a gun for self defense, if it does NOT point naturally once you pull it out of holster.
Do not be recoil shy, it is a misconception that .45 kicks more then 9mm all the time. My 9mm Beretta M9 recoils harder and snappier then any of my full size 1911's.
.45 is large caliber LOW PRESSURE round,... 9mm, 10mm, .40cal....HIGH PRESSURE rounds. High pressure round in a light, compact, polymer framed gun, will generate quite a bit of recoil. Just something to think of.
Another thing that most of the people do not understand is that "cool", or "fancy" gun does not drop the intruder,...bullet will take him out. Your handgun is just a tool to deliver it, so choose one that will fit YOU, and that will drop HIM as soon as possible (.380?). I would hate to explain to the court why did I shoot someone 15 or 17 times..."you know....he did not wanna stop movin' ....soo i got him few more times with my trusty .380!???
People with no first hand experience will recommend you what ever is popular at the moment, or what someone else (PD, or cool neighbor) have told them. Do not listen to them or me, do your research about ammo, and find yourself gun that fit you.
Few things that are facts in my book, but you may want to verify for yourself:
If you need 15-17 rounds to finish the fight,....just get yourself different gun!
.380 is NOT assumed to be a bare minimum for self defense anymore. People are getting bigger, and more drugged up, so it is harder to drop them.
.40 is not the best! ( ...but most of the PD are issuing .40!!!) No they do not. Most of the PD's in hot areas had switched BACK to .45 long time ago.
Revolvers are good for beginners in high stress situation. Who ever has hard time understanding this one, should not give any advice to a person buying a first handgun for self defense.
Training (practice shooting) will keep you alive,... trendy weapon that someone else recommended you may not. Do not buy it unless you are going to learn how to use it, use it a lot, and learn how to use it fast and effective.
.22 is good for fun or practice(limited), but do not practice with it too much, unless you gonna carry it.
Practice with what you carry.
Find yourself good, quiet, comfortable, stiff holster, and gunbelt (not dress belt) made specifically for gun that you carry. I can recommend few leather holsters, have not found Kydex that is cancelable, comfortable, and quiet....yet(not even "crossbreed"), Still looking
I love Glocks, but they are not "the best", or for everyone, They are the best compromise in between price, and quality. Most of the PD's buy them because they get good deal! It is also easy, and relatively quick to train an un experienced person to use it safely with minimum liability
Do not get sucked in whole Ruger LCP crap. It is same as Kel-Tec! That is a BACK UP weapon. Have you ever seen a Police officer carry a "Ruger", or any other .380 as a primary weapon?
Also, it would be wise to establish for yourself: HOW MUCH MONEY IS YOUR LIFE WORTH? amount that you gonna come up with, should be the amount that you should feel comfortable spending on a self defense weapon. If it seems too much, then you probably do not have a reason to think about defending yourself yet
Do not be recoil shy, it is a misconception that .45 kicks more then 9mm all the time. My 9mm Beretta M9 recoils harder and snappier then any of my full size 1911's.
.45 is large caliber LOW PRESSURE round,... 9mm, 10mm, .40cal....HIGH PRESSURE rounds. High pressure round in a light, compact, polymer framed gun, will generate quite a bit of recoil. Just something to think of.
Another thing that most of the people do not understand is that "cool", or "fancy" gun does not drop the intruder,...bullet will take him out. Your handgun is just a tool to deliver it, so choose one that will fit YOU, and that will drop HIM as soon as possible (.380?). I would hate to explain to the court why did I shoot someone 15 or 17 times..."you know....he did not wanna stop movin' ....soo i got him few more times with my trusty .380!???
People with no first hand experience will recommend you what ever is popular at the moment, or what someone else (PD, or cool neighbor) have told them. Do not listen to them or me, do your research about ammo, and find yourself gun that fit you.
Few things that are facts in my book, but you may want to verify for yourself:
If you need 15-17 rounds to finish the fight,....just get yourself different gun!
.380 is NOT assumed to be a bare minimum for self defense anymore. People are getting bigger, and more drugged up, so it is harder to drop them.
.40 is not the best! ( ...but most of the PD are issuing .40!!!) No they do not. Most of the PD's in hot areas had switched BACK to .45 long time ago.
Revolvers are good for beginners in high stress situation. Who ever has hard time understanding this one, should not give any advice to a person buying a first handgun for self defense.
Training (practice shooting) will keep you alive,... trendy weapon that someone else recommended you may not. Do not buy it unless you are going to learn how to use it, use it a lot, and learn how to use it fast and effective.
.22 is good for fun or practice(limited), but do not practice with it too much, unless you gonna carry it.
Practice with what you carry.
Find yourself good, quiet, comfortable, stiff holster, and gunbelt (not dress belt) made specifically for gun that you carry. I can recommend few leather holsters, have not found Kydex that is cancelable, comfortable, and quiet....yet(not even "crossbreed"), Still looking
I love Glocks, but they are not "the best", or for everyone, They are the best compromise in between price, and quality. Most of the PD's buy them because they get good deal! It is also easy, and relatively quick to train an un experienced person to use it safely with minimum liability
Do not get sucked in whole Ruger LCP crap. It is same as Kel-Tec! That is a BACK UP weapon. Have you ever seen a Police officer carry a "Ruger", or any other .380 as a primary weapon?
Also, it would be wise to establish for yourself: HOW MUCH MONEY IS YOUR LIFE WORTH? amount that you gonna come up with, should be the amount that you should feel comfortable spending on a self defense weapon. If it seems too much, then you probably do not have a reason to think about defending yourself yet
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- Jun 28, 2010
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The .45 1911's felt very good in hand, so I figured the RIA 1911 would be worth looking into. I wouldn't have even given it thought until I read your earlier post (#30 in this thread) and it piqued interest. However, I take these responses to be that I should not depend on this model for self-defense (or those on the lower end of the spectrum) correct? Still like to own one someday but for this I think it will be one to save up for.
I do have a question regarding dry firing and snap caps. Snap caps help prevent damage of the firing pin correct? Can snap caps be reused or are they a single use only?
Definitely, will do.
I did have a good time, and thanks again for the heads up on it.Spring fatigue is not something that I had thought of. Is this a common problem?
How do you tell what kind of ammo will be high pressure or low pressure? And how do you determine what type of ammo to use (is this part a bit of trial and error to see what shoots well with the pistol)?
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When I mentioned 1911s I was just trying to get you to realize that there are some full size handguns that you can conceal if need be, the 1911 being one of them if you have a decent holster. 1911s were built on the .45 acp as the bullet of choice, which is why 9mm versions often have issues with them. That doesn't mean good ones don't exist. They are just a lot more rare and usually cost a good bit. There are plenty lower priced .45 1911s, like the RIA for example, that are great for self defense. Still, it all depends on how proficient you are with the weapon, whether that's a 1911 or otherwise. Also factor in ammo costs. I'm assuming you will not reload, so .45 will be damn expensive. 9mm will be considerably cheaper, which means you will end up shooting it more at the range.
Some snap caps wear out after a few hundred dry fires. Others last thousands and thousands of dry fires. Get the A-zoom. They are aluminum with a hard plastic in the back that the firing pin hits. These will last a loooooooooong time. You get 5 per pack for around 15 - 18 bucks. Yes, they prevent damage to the firing pin.
How does one tell if ammo will be high pressure or not? Well, there are two parts to this question. 1) 9mm generates around 35,000 PSI around the barrel walls when it shoots down the barrel. This is considered "higher" pressure than .45. .45 will generate around 21,000 PSI on the barrel walls as it shoots down the barrel. 9mm rounds are almost always over 1000 FPS muzzle velocity with 115 grain loads being closer to around 1150 FPS at the muzzle. .45 will almost always be below 1000 FPS with 230 grain loads being closer to around 750 - 850 FPS at the muzzle.
2) A round can be high pressure relative to it's normal operating pressure. This is designated by +P or +P+ after the caliber name. For example, 9mm +P or or .45 +P+. The name is stamped on the case head with the exception of NATO rounds. This is standard nomenclature in the US under SAAMI pressure specs. Overseas it's different IIRC since they go by a different PSI reading, from a different part of the bullet. A higher pressure load is just that, a bullet that exerts more pressure on the barrel walls. More pressure = higher velocity and consequently more wear and tear on gun parts. Many guns are not designed for +P bullets, though they probably can fire a few rounds every now and then. The exception is HK, which specifically tests their weapons with repeated bouts of +P ammo. 9mm +P is loaded to around 38,500 PSI. The .45 +P is around 23,000 PSI.
+P+ has little regulation since there is no ceiling (no cut off) to my knowledge, whereas +P loads have a maximum operating pressure, that is they can be "up to" 38,500 PSI for 9mm +P for example.
The reason +P and +P+ exist are because faster velocity = more energy on impact. Also, you can use a heavier bullet and get the same velocity in +P that you would get out of a lower weight bullet in non +P variety. Also, it goes without saying that most +P or +P+ loads will generate more recoil.
Now if you reload, it's a different game. I can make a softer feeling (less recoil) round that goes faster than factory ammo. It depends on what powder you use.
NOTE: I was only using 9mm and .45 as an example. There are +P versions of most calibers but 9 and 45 are what I'm familiar with.
EDIT: Spring fatigue is not something you should be too concerned with. It's not like spring fatigue happens often at all. Train with your weapon. Replace springs around 5 - 10,000 rounds depending on what the manufacturer says. Most guns can go past that round count, but the manufacturers like for the customers to play it safe. Regarding magazine spring fatigue, just cycle your magazines by rotating which magazine stays loaded.
Revolver for first gun, I'd say a heck no to that. Learning a long trigger pull on a DA revolver is not the easiest thing to master for a person new to shooting. Sure, you pull the trigger and the thing goes bang most of the time. A Glock or M&P do too and have a better trigger pull.
EDIT 2: Whatever you do, steer clear of aluminum and steel cased ammo. Brass has a higher modulus (tendency for a material to deform) than steel. Whereas brass will just swell up a little, steel could expand and crack which can cause damage to a firearm. Most manuals will say not to use steel cased ammo.
Also, don't shoot lead bullets if your gun has polygonal rifling. That's a rule of thumb. Some people do shoot lead bullets through polygonals but those people usually reload and use lead bullets that are harder so the fouling is minimized in the rifling. If your gun has land and groove rifling, by all means shoot lead.
YAY for information overload!
Some snap caps wear out after a few hundred dry fires. Others last thousands and thousands of dry fires. Get the A-zoom. They are aluminum with a hard plastic in the back that the firing pin hits. These will last a loooooooooong time. You get 5 per pack for around 15 - 18 bucks. Yes, they prevent damage to the firing pin.
How does one tell if ammo will be high pressure or not? Well, there are two parts to this question. 1) 9mm generates around 35,000 PSI around the barrel walls when it shoots down the barrel. This is considered "higher" pressure than .45. .45 will generate around 21,000 PSI on the barrel walls as it shoots down the barrel. 9mm rounds are almost always over 1000 FPS muzzle velocity with 115 grain loads being closer to around 1150 FPS at the muzzle. .45 will almost always be below 1000 FPS with 230 grain loads being closer to around 750 - 850 FPS at the muzzle.
2) A round can be high pressure relative to it's normal operating pressure. This is designated by +P or +P+ after the caliber name. For example, 9mm +P or or .45 +P+. The name is stamped on the case head with the exception of NATO rounds. This is standard nomenclature in the US under SAAMI pressure specs. Overseas it's different IIRC since they go by a different PSI reading, from a different part of the bullet. A higher pressure load is just that, a bullet that exerts more pressure on the barrel walls. More pressure = higher velocity and consequently more wear and tear on gun parts. Many guns are not designed for +P bullets, though they probably can fire a few rounds every now and then. The exception is HK, which specifically tests their weapons with repeated bouts of +P ammo. 9mm +P is loaded to around 38,500 PSI. The .45 +P is around 23,000 PSI.
+P+ has little regulation since there is no ceiling (no cut off) to my knowledge, whereas +P loads have a maximum operating pressure, that is they can be "up to" 38,500 PSI for 9mm +P for example.
The reason +P and +P+ exist are because faster velocity = more energy on impact. Also, you can use a heavier bullet and get the same velocity in +P that you would get out of a lower weight bullet in non +P variety. Also, it goes without saying that most +P or +P+ loads will generate more recoil.
Now if you reload, it's a different game. I can make a softer feeling (less recoil) round that goes faster than factory ammo. It depends on what powder you use.
NOTE: I was only using 9mm and .45 as an example. There are +P versions of most calibers but 9 and 45 are what I'm familiar with.
EDIT: Spring fatigue is not something you should be too concerned with. It's not like spring fatigue happens often at all. Train with your weapon. Replace springs around 5 - 10,000 rounds depending on what the manufacturer says. Most guns can go past that round count, but the manufacturers like for the customers to play it safe. Regarding magazine spring fatigue, just cycle your magazines by rotating which magazine stays loaded.
Revolver for first gun, I'd say a heck no to that. Learning a long trigger pull on a DA revolver is not the easiest thing to master for a person new to shooting. Sure, you pull the trigger and the thing goes bang most of the time. A Glock or M&P do too and have a better trigger pull.
EDIT 2: Whatever you do, steer clear of aluminum and steel cased ammo. Brass has a higher modulus (tendency for a material to deform) than steel. Whereas brass will just swell up a little, steel could expand and crack which can cause damage to a firearm. Most manuals will say not to use steel cased ammo.
Also, don't shoot lead bullets if your gun has polygonal rifling. That's a rule of thumb. Some people do shoot lead bullets through polygonals but those people usually reload and use lead bullets that are harder so the fouling is minimized in the rifling. If your gun has land and groove rifling, by all means shoot lead.
YAY for information overload!
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2004
- Messages
- 815
"I have a .357 revolver for my house gun (don't have to worry about spring fatigue leaving it loaded for a long period of time). I know, some will argue this point..."
Not if you have several magazines and rotate them. I always buy spare magazines for my semiautos. Some argue that newer spring materials do not have this problem. I have seen it, however. When a semiauto is malfunctioning, often it is the magazine that is at fault.
M.
Not if you have several magazines and rotate them. I always buy spare magazines for my semiautos. Some argue that newer spring materials do not have this problem. I have seen it, however. When a semiauto is malfunctioning, often it is the magazine that is at fault.
M.
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2004
- Messages
- 815
While I agree that the .380 is not as effective a round as a .45 (I am a .45 fan also), the first rule is to have a gun with you.
It is not always practical to have a big handgun with you. Concealing a large handgun is not easy. Carrying one all day is a task.
Therefore, I think there is a place for the pocket pistol (.380 or .38). I will be the first in line for a quality 9mm which is the size of a .380 at a decent price. They are getting close, but the best ones are expensive.
You probably should decide what the main purpose of your first handgun is and plan on buying one or two more for other purposes later.
M.
It is not always practical to have a big handgun with you. Concealing a large handgun is not easy. Carrying one all day is a task.
Therefore, I think there is a place for the pocket pistol (.380 or .38). I will be the first in line for a quality 9mm which is the size of a .380 at a decent price. They are getting close, but the best ones are expensive.
You probably should decide what the main purpose of your first handgun is and plan on buying one or two more for other purposes later.
M.
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2010
- Messages
- 1,952
Once again, I thank everyone for their input and advice! It's all been very helpful. I returned a couple of hours ago from my first basic firearms safety/proficiency course. Half of the 5 hour course was spent in class with a power point presentation and a little hands on training. The other half was spent at the range.
The safety portion was everything that has been said here in the thread, although a bit more in depth and driven home thanks to a few pictures included in the presentation. Hands on (including proper grip and stance) was done with the Ruger 22/45 MKIII.
Now the part I was not expecting was range time. The course was held at one of the city's Community College Campus in the Law Enforcement Building. We would be using the Rugers we held and worked with in class. After receiving instructions, and both eye and hearing protection, we proceeded to the range. One side was sectioned off for us. We shot targets at 3, 5, 10, 15, and 25 yards. A few in the class had some jams and non-fires. I thought I would be able to get by without issue but the gun I was using jammed once on me when we were shooting out the the 25 yard mark. Once done with our shooting we picked up all of our casings and disposed of them and the paper targets (well some opted to keep theirs).
Back in class our instructor spoke a bit more with us and had a brief Q & A for any other questions we had. The surprising part (to me anyhow) was I thought the class would consist mostly of newbies such as myself. It wasn't a big class, there were only eleven of us total. In the beginning we all introduced ourselves and were asked of our experience level. Two of us had never fired a gun prior to today. There was two others who were still fairly new to guns, although they stated they've gone shooting out in the desert with friends or family. The others were a bit seasoned. One, in particular, was a 24 year Vet. That said, and granted it was only with a .22, I did pretty good. At the 3 and 5 yard marks, the target we were using had 5 circled and numbered areas. Our instructor would call out the amount of rounds to place within that circle. At the 10, 15, and 25 yard marks we used unmarked torso targets and would either shoot for the head or center mass. Up to 15 yards I had good groupings, while at 25 yards they weren't as tight.
So that still left the question (to me anyhow) why seasoned and familiar people attended this class. With the completion of this class we all will receive a certificate (should be available for pickup this week). This certificate will allow us to rent time at this range, and what is different at this range than the others here is that this one is indoors. They charge $20 for 8 visits and $30 or $40 for 40 visits. I asked if they rent out firearms but they do not. They only supply the targets, eye and hearing protection.
I have to say it was very informative and fun! As dumb as it may sound...when I got back home I felt a bit relaxed/spent, almost as if I had had a good workout.
Btw, can anybody recommend a good gun safe and range bag. I have to admit I haven't looked at gun safes yet, but would be looking for something with enough size to hold 1 or 2 guns, a few magazines and ammo. For range bags, does anybody have any experience with the following: MidwayUSA Competition Range Bag, US PeaceKeeper Medium Range Bag, Bulldog X-Large Deluxe Black Range Bag, or Uncle Mike's Deluxe Range Bag?
The safety portion was everything that has been said here in the thread, although a bit more in depth and driven home thanks to a few pictures included in the presentation. Hands on (including proper grip and stance) was done with the Ruger 22/45 MKIII.
Now the part I was not expecting was range time. The course was held at one of the city's Community College Campus in the Law Enforcement Building. We would be using the Rugers we held and worked with in class. After receiving instructions, and both eye and hearing protection, we proceeded to the range. One side was sectioned off for us. We shot targets at 3, 5, 10, 15, and 25 yards. A few in the class had some jams and non-fires. I thought I would be able to get by without issue but the gun I was using jammed once on me when we were shooting out the the 25 yard mark. Once done with our shooting we picked up all of our casings and disposed of them and the paper targets (well some opted to keep theirs).
Back in class our instructor spoke a bit more with us and had a brief Q & A for any other questions we had. The surprising part (to me anyhow) was I thought the class would consist mostly of newbies such as myself. It wasn't a big class, there were only eleven of us total. In the beginning we all introduced ourselves and were asked of our experience level. Two of us had never fired a gun prior to today. There was two others who were still fairly new to guns, although they stated they've gone shooting out in the desert with friends or family. The others were a bit seasoned. One, in particular, was a 24 year Vet. That said, and granted it was only with a .22, I did pretty good. At the 3 and 5 yard marks, the target we were using had 5 circled and numbered areas. Our instructor would call out the amount of rounds to place within that circle. At the 10, 15, and 25 yard marks we used unmarked torso targets and would either shoot for the head or center mass. Up to 15 yards I had good groupings, while at 25 yards they weren't as tight.
So that still left the question (to me anyhow) why seasoned and familiar people attended this class. With the completion of this class we all will receive a certificate (should be available for pickup this week). This certificate will allow us to rent time at this range, and what is different at this range than the others here is that this one is indoors. They charge $20 for 8 visits and $30 or $40 for 40 visits. I asked if they rent out firearms but they do not. They only supply the targets, eye and hearing protection.
I have to say it was very informative and fun! As dumb as it may sound...when I got back home I felt a bit relaxed/spent, almost as if I had had a good workout.
Btw, can anybody recommend a good gun safe and range bag. I have to admit I haven't looked at gun safes yet, but would be looking for something with enough size to hold 1 or 2 guns, a few magazines and ammo. For range bags, does anybody have any experience with the following: MidwayUSA Competition Range Bag, US PeaceKeeper Medium Range Bag, Bulldog X-Large Deluxe Black Range Bag, or Uncle Mike's Deluxe Range Bag?