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Yeah, i just cut it with a 1mm thick cutting disk. with an angle grinder, didn't produce much heat.
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- Thread starter Tiiiiiiiim
- Start date
Yeah, i just cut it with a 1mm thick cutting disk. with an angle grinder, didn't produce much heat.
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Tim,
How is the research going...Just a clue on the sawblade steel, you will need to drill several holes through your liner material...on a minimum a hole for your pivot, stop pin, and at least two others for stand offs or spacer. Depending on how you mount your scales you might need additional holes for those too, but could use stand off and stop for that also.
Oh, hey by the way those are some good looking wood scale you have there...is that Bocote? or Zebra wood? or? and it almost looks like they could be book matched? What is the low down?
If you are going to do a folder you really will need get a few supplies I think. Unfortuntely, knifemakers are vexed with needing realitively small quanities of very specific high grade materials...so it can be hard to find even in a big city. I would recommend you check out someplace like USA Knifemaker. They have a good selection for what you are going to need and competitive prices.
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/store/http://www.usaknifemaker.com/store/
I would also recommend both K & G and Jantz as other options:
http://www.knifeandgun.com/
http://jantzsupply.com/index.html
There are many more out there so I am sure we can get some other input on good suppy places.
Let me know how it's going and good luck.
Eric
How is the research going...Just a clue on the sawblade steel, you will need to drill several holes through your liner material...on a minimum a hole for your pivot, stop pin, and at least two others for stand offs or spacer. Depending on how you mount your scales you might need additional holes for those too, but could use stand off and stop for that also.
Oh, hey by the way those are some good looking wood scale you have there...is that Bocote? or Zebra wood? or? and it almost looks like they could be book matched? What is the low down?
If you are going to do a folder you really will need get a few supplies I think. Unfortuntely, knifemakers are vexed with needing realitively small quanities of very specific high grade materials...so it can be hard to find even in a big city. I would recommend you check out someplace like USA Knifemaker. They have a good selection for what you are going to need and competitive prices.
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/store/http://www.usaknifemaker.com/store/
I would also recommend both K & G and Jantz as other options:
http://www.knifeandgun.com/
http://jantzsupply.com/index.html
There are many more out there so I am sure we can get some other input on good suppy places.
Let me know how it's going and good luck.
Eric
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i still don't understand why the metal would be no good for the liner. i must be missing something. the timber is wenge which we just used recently on a job at work so we had some lying around. sorry this didn't answer all your questions im posting from my phone. ill reply properly when i get home.
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Are you just concerned about the thickness of the saw blade steel in the handle? I don't think i could use it anyway, its not big enough.
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Tiiiiiiiim, the thickness with your scales could make this knife bigger than one would likely want foresure. However, the issue I am concerned about right now is that saw blades are very tough which is good for us but also very hard...which is not good for drilling. We have a number of holes to drill and/or potentially tap so we can screw into the liner to hold this all together. As I had mentioned earlier it may (more than likely) require that you have a special carbide bit to get through this. If you want a knife blade that does not wabble in the frame this hole needs to be exact. So tough is good for us but hard is a problem and carbide bits for a 3/16" or 1/4" run $8-10. Oh, most importantly they are fragile, like a baby, as they are very hard they break very easy. If you drop them on a concrete floor they will likely shatter or break the next hole you try to drill.
What is really central here is to understand some of the properties of metals. This metal sawblade is made up of component elements that make it hard and tough when it is heat treated, like it is now. It is possible to change that with a forge by heating it up and cooling it slowly, called annealing. Or in the case of most knife blade to do initial shaping in the soft anneal state and then heat treat. Understanding these relationships of component elements how they effect the qualities of the metal and the heating/cooling process and how it changes these characteristics is the science of metallurgy.
However, the best frame liner material is going to be an alloy that has component elements that will be pretty tough but also malleable...say Titanium in 6Al-4V or 410 stainless steel these specific metals have good properties for a liner.
You need to have some fun now.
Get a cereal box or plastic packaging, and trace your blade out on it. (Oh, hey that reminds me could you post a pic of your blade I am curious what we are working with at this point, just want to see) then you need to create a handle which will shroud that blade when closed. From previous pics it looks like you were started on this. Be sure to leave some extra room around the edges or just cut a big rectangle for the handle to start with and scetch the handle shape you had for your scales on it. This may need to change a little. Then get a push pin find the spot where the pivot is going to work. remember we need to have a stop pin, lock and at least two spacer screws into a spacer/stand-off so the handle is going to have to incorporate all of that. Here is one of my old ones. Post some pics of yours if you could.
So, what else are we going to need? A pivot...this part is available from any of the previous suppliers mentioned and heat treated is best, in our case given the size of your blade 1/4" might be good but I would lean to 3/16" since the hole will be easier to drill. Next we need spacer material, washers and finally fasteners (screws). Get a list going and check out what you like.
All the best!
What is really central here is to understand some of the properties of metals. This metal sawblade is made up of component elements that make it hard and tough when it is heat treated, like it is now. It is possible to change that with a forge by heating it up and cooling it slowly, called annealing. Or in the case of most knife blade to do initial shaping in the soft anneal state and then heat treat. Understanding these relationships of component elements how they effect the qualities of the metal and the heating/cooling process and how it changes these characteristics is the science of metallurgy.
However, the best frame liner material is going to be an alloy that has component elements that will be pretty tough but also malleable...say Titanium in 6Al-4V or 410 stainless steel these specific metals have good properties for a liner.
You need to have some fun now.
Get a cereal box or plastic packaging, and trace your blade out on it. (Oh, hey that reminds me could you post a pic of your blade I am curious what we are working with at this point, just want to see) then you need to create a handle which will shroud that blade when closed. From previous pics it looks like you were started on this. Be sure to leave some extra room around the edges or just cut a big rectangle for the handle to start with and scetch the handle shape you had for your scales on it. This may need to change a little. Then get a push pin find the spot where the pivot is going to work. remember we need to have a stop pin, lock and at least two spacer screws into a spacer/stand-off so the handle is going to have to incorporate all of that. Here is one of my old ones. Post some pics of yours if you could.So, what else are we going to need? A pivot...this part is available from any of the previous suppliers mentioned and heat treated is best, in our case given the size of your blade 1/4" might be good but I would lean to 3/16" since the hole will be easier to drill. Next we need spacer material, washers and finally fasteners (screws). Get a list going and check out what you like.
All the best!
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tim folders are really hard to make. with a fixed blade as long as the steel is decent, and the handles dont fall off it will work rather well, even if it doesn't look so good. folders on the other hand have to made very precisely, with allot of drilling, and moving parts. for your liner lock to work both tang of the blade, and the lock will have to be perfectly flat, and fit very tightly otherwise your blade will wiggle back and forth. the position and tolerances involved are very exact. not to mention it is much harder to make a folder look even half decent.
just my $.02
try to stick with what Ochs has said he gives good advise, and seems to be going out of his way to take care of you
just my $.02
try to stick with what Ochs has said he gives good advise, and seems to be going out of his way to take care of you
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Tiiiiiiiim, the thickness with your scales could make this knife bigger than one would likely want foresure. However, the issue I am concerned about right now is that saw blades are very tough which is good for us but also very hard...which is not good for drilling. We have a number of holes to drill and/or potentially tap so we can screw into the liner to hold this all together. As I had mentioned earlier it may (more than likely) require that you have a special carbide bit to get through this. If you want a knife blade that does not wabble in the frame this hole needs to be exact. So tough is good for us but hard is a problem and carbide bits for a 3/16" or 1/4" run $8-10. Oh, most importantly they are fragile, like a baby, as they are very hard they break very easy. If you drop them on a concrete floor they will likely shatter or break the next hole you try to drill.
What is really central here is to understand some of the properties of metals. This metal sawblade is made up of component elements that make it hard and tough when it is heat treated, like it is now. It is possible to change that with a forge by heating it up and cooling it slowly, called annealing. Or in the case of most knife blade to do initial shaping in the soft anneal state and then heat treat. Understanding these relationships of component elements how they effect the qualities of the metal and the heating/cooling process and how it changes these characteristics is the science of metallurgy.
However, the best frame liner material is going to be an alloy that has component elements that will be pretty tough but also malleable...say Titanium in 6Al-4V or 410 stainless steel these specific metals have good properties for a liner.
You need to have some fun now.
So, what else are we going to need? A pivot...this part is available from any of the previous suppliers mentioned and heat treated is best, in our case given the size of your blade 1/4" might be good but I would lean to 3/16" since the hole will be easier to drill. Next we need spacer material, washers and finally fasteners (screws). Get a list going and check out what you like.
All the best!
Your posts are so hard to answer, theres so much information and questions to reply to. haha. So this afternoon i grabbed an off cut of the blade and gave it a test drill and it drilled pretty easy (the steel may be worse than you think
)I took your advice and cut started making a template/test knife. I've been making to roughly to size and am quite happy with the feel of the thickness and shape in my hand. I'll post pictures later (i still have to load them off my phone) along with some questions
.As for how the blades going it's still in the same, nearly finished state i posted last. I should get a list going, yes.
Thanks for all the help!
Yeah, i'm awear of how terribley wrong this could go, but im pretty set on making a folder
and yes i am very thankful for all of Ochs effort.
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Trial run pictures. (sorry for bad quality)
Complete
Profile
Inner frame (scale off)
Closed
Complete
Profile
Inner frame (scale off)
Closed
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- May 5, 2010
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Tim,
Nebulae makes a good point, this maybe destined for a marginal out come. However, I know you have already put some work into this and you do seem determined. Also, thanks to both you and Nebulae for the kind words. It is appreciated, and I will do my best here to work through this with you. Nice post too Tim, you got a whole model of what you are working on going.
Just a couple things to address on the current model, first the pivot point needs to move slightly. As a basic rule I would set the pivot back at least 3/8" from the front edge of the handle. We need room for the washers on either side of the blade and we want it to be strong here. Additionally, the blade edge could (does not have to) start just in front of the handle. Also, I think it looks better to center your pivot more. Bottom line the pivot point should be centered slightly more and moved more slightly toward the center of the handle. The blade could be shifted back into the handle more too.
On your model and on the real knife the liners are going to need to cover the entire interior of the knife for strength, safety and to support the wood which will likely crack over time if not supported from behind. Notice the knives in the pic below. Handles need to be able to take a real beating.
Not sure to be happy or sad about the blade steel...However if this is the blade you are set on using it is what it is.
As you mentioned get a list started for the materials and tools needed. I would suggest you go with a Titanium liner at 0.060 to 0.080 thick. Here is a start of a List:
Liner material
Pivot
Stop
Thumb stud
Stand-off or spacer material
Detent ball
Screws...
Additionally, we are going to need some a couple bits(we want new or very sharp good ones, cobalt preferably, no messing with old bits here), a reamer (for our pivot to keep the blade play down, more to come). Counter sink bits for the screws we are mounting with. Start looking at those supply places at parts and thinking what you want this to look like. I think with the size of handle we may want to consider hiding the pivot, stop and stand-off/spacer screws and mount the handle scales with two or three separate mounting screws. Check out the forum for ideas.
Just to be clear here is a picture showing a knife with stand-offs (yellow handle of one of mine) and a couple knives with spacers, black handled ones. The black material is Micarta which makes a nice spacer (G10 is good too). This will have to be sized perfectly to maintain even spacing for the blade to pivot in.
There are also a couple of different pivots and a pair of spacers on the black micarta for comparison.
We are going to need access to a few tools, at a minimum the drill press you menitioned and also, a stationary grinder(please post pic) measuring calipers, tap handles, or better yet one that mounts in the drill press or similar stationary set up and taps. Let me know what you have access to. Honestly, you are going to need to spend a little money here to make a decent folder, bits are cheap but counter sinks, reamers, titanium and such I bet you will be into this $100-$150 depending on exactly how you choose to do it.
Still in...So, 1) start a list and check out suppliers and other makers for ideas; 2) Post a pic of current blade (still curious); 3) work on the model pivot and post a pic. 4) Pic of stationary sander/grinder and availability of tapping tools and calipers.
Rock on!
Nebulae makes a good point, this maybe destined for a marginal out come. However, I know you have already put some work into this and you do seem determined. Also, thanks to both you and Nebulae for the kind words. It is appreciated, and I will do my best here to work through this with you. Nice post too Tim, you got a whole model of what you are working on going.
Just a couple things to address on the current model, first the pivot point needs to move slightly. As a basic rule I would set the pivot back at least 3/8" from the front edge of the handle. We need room for the washers on either side of the blade and we want it to be strong here. Additionally, the blade edge could (does not have to) start just in front of the handle. Also, I think it looks better to center your pivot more. Bottom line the pivot point should be centered slightly more and moved more slightly toward the center of the handle. The blade could be shifted back into the handle more too.
On your model and on the real knife the liners are going to need to cover the entire interior of the knife for strength, safety and to support the wood which will likely crack over time if not supported from behind. Notice the knives in the pic below. Handles need to be able to take a real beating.
Not sure to be happy or sad about the blade steel...However if this is the blade you are set on using it is what it is.
As you mentioned get a list started for the materials and tools needed. I would suggest you go with a Titanium liner at 0.060 to 0.080 thick. Here is a start of a List:
Liner material
Pivot
Stop
Thumb stud
Stand-off or spacer material
Detent ball
Screws...
Additionally, we are going to need some a couple bits(we want new or very sharp good ones, cobalt preferably, no messing with old bits here), a reamer (for our pivot to keep the blade play down, more to come). Counter sink bits for the screws we are mounting with. Start looking at those supply places at parts and thinking what you want this to look like. I think with the size of handle we may want to consider hiding the pivot, stop and stand-off/spacer screws and mount the handle scales with two or three separate mounting screws. Check out the forum for ideas.
Just to be clear here is a picture showing a knife with stand-offs (yellow handle of one of mine) and a couple knives with spacers, black handled ones. The black material is Micarta which makes a nice spacer (G10 is good too). This will have to be sized perfectly to maintain even spacing for the blade to pivot in.
There are also a couple of different pivots and a pair of spacers on the black micarta for comparison.
We are going to need access to a few tools, at a minimum the drill press you menitioned and also, a stationary grinder(please post pic) measuring calipers, tap handles, or better yet one that mounts in the drill press or similar stationary set up and taps. Let me know what you have access to. Honestly, you are going to need to spend a little money here to make a decent folder, bits are cheap but counter sinks, reamers, titanium and such I bet you will be into this $100-$150 depending on exactly how you choose to do it.
Still in...So, 1) start a list and check out suppliers and other makers for ideas; 2) Post a pic of current blade (still curious); 3) work on the model pivot and post a pic. 4) Pic of stationary sander/grinder and availability of tapping tools and calipers.
Rock on!
Last edited:
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Eric, as i said in the last post. The blade still looks the same as the last pic i posted of it with the handle.
I have access to a belt/bobbin and disc sander
Bench Grinder with a fairly fine wheel (used to grinding our chisels)
Tap & die set.
I also have some verniers.
I have access to a belt/bobbin and disc sander
Bench Grinder with a fairly fine wheel (used to grinding our chisels)
Tap & die set.
I also have some verniers.
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Tim,
OK, good you have some tools to work with here. Good to see. By the way Tim where in the world are you? City or town I mean? I hope it has a good hardware store? LOL.
Back to our mock-up, once you get new liners made up the full size of your handle material break that model apart we want JUST one liner and the blade to play with. Start with a push pin here so we can adjust things around...later we can put a more formal pin or chicago screw in. For the lock up to work right we need to find a good pivot point and a point that works for our stop. Adjust that pivot point as I noted before and let's see some pictures with just the single liner and blade in both the open and closed position.
Blade in open position, note how the back of the blade rest on the stop pin in the middle of picture.
Blade in closed position, note how the bottom of the blade rests against the stop.
Next, We need to find a similar point to place your stop pin. You can start with a pencil and hold it on the model to find this point and mark it. This is actually why I was wanting to see a picture of your blade since I was curious what we would be working with that was covered by you scales in the previous pictures. If you could post a pic of the blade I am interested in the back of the blade and handle area where the pivot is since we will need to shape this to fit our stop and lock.
There is that better, not quite so long.
OK, good you have some tools to work with here. Good to see. By the way Tim where in the world are you? City or town I mean? I hope it has a good hardware store? LOL.
Back to our mock-up, once you get new liners made up the full size of your handle material break that model apart we want JUST one liner and the blade to play with. Start with a push pin here so we can adjust things around...later we can put a more formal pin or chicago screw in. For the lock up to work right we need to find a good pivot point and a point that works for our stop. Adjust that pivot point as I noted before and let's see some pictures with just the single liner and blade in both the open and closed position.
Blade in open position, note how the back of the blade rest on the stop pin in the middle of picture.
Blade in closed position, note how the bottom of the blade rests against the stop.
Next, We need to find a similar point to place your stop pin. You can start with a pencil and hold it on the model to find this point and mark it. This is actually why I was wanting to see a picture of your blade since I was curious what we would be working with that was covered by you scales in the previous pictures. If you could post a pic of the blade I am interested in the back of the blade and handle area where the pivot is since we will need to shape this to fit our stop and lock.
There is that better, not quite so long.
Last edited:
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I live in Brisbane, Australia. Yes there's plenty on hardware around.
Sorry, i didn't get a pic of it closed
By the way, your pictures hardly ever work.
Sorry, i didn't get a pic of it closed
By the way, your pictures hardly ever work.
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I live in Brisbane, Australia. Yes there's plenty on hardware around.
Sorry, i didn't get a pic of it closed
By the way, your pictures hardly ever work.
There is no lack of i's either it seems.
As stated above you put in the elbow grease. Keep going.. you will be rocking soon. :thumbup:
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Wow, an Aussie 'A' very cool. I noticed all your posts seemed to be at night and was wondering where you were. Also, thanks Michael for the vote of confidence.
Interesting about the pics. They are all posted on the forum server and come up fine for me. Are you doing this on a phone? Maybe I need to keep the pics slightly smaller. What pics most recently have worked for you.
That's good Tim. I think we have something to work with here. Looks like you have a stop location generally figured too. Just a couple considerations on the stop location. Make sure that no part of the back of the blade crosses that pin location...this is very important if you actually want to open the knife. But you probably already figured that out. So we want a 1/16" (0.060) of an inch clearance or so here. This is where a actual picture of the real blade showing the back would be helpful for me.
Next how about a pic of the closed model and then we can start talking about spacers and/or stand-offs and sizing and lock-ups....
Also, track down those measuring calipers and get a measurement on the area around the pivot point. Post that if you could. How much sanding, buffing or filling did you do in this area... We need this area, as Nebulae mentioned, to be flat and both sides of the blade to be parallel to each other. You can also check this with your calipers by holding the blade up to a light use the calipers tight to the blade to block the light and look for any rays getting through. If you are flat and paralell your calipers will move evenly...also put some blue lay-out dye or sharpie on the pivot area as you are checking this and if there is high spots they will show up as the scratched areas. Idealy you want no light, even movement of calipers and slight scratches across all your pivot area. Hope that makes sense.
Here is a cool build project on the forum to check out.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=733966
So, help me out with a pic of the actual blade and the closed model. Then do some checking on the blade thickness and let me know what you find.
Tomorrow may be tough for me so it maybe Monday before next post.
Rock on.
Interesting about the pics. They are all posted on the forum server and come up fine for me. Are you doing this on a phone? Maybe I need to keep the pics slightly smaller. What pics most recently have worked for you.
That's good Tim. I think we have something to work with here. Looks like you have a stop location generally figured too. Just a couple considerations on the stop location. Make sure that no part of the back of the blade crosses that pin location...this is very important if you actually want to open the knife.
But you probably already figured that out. So we want a 1/16" (0.060) of an inch clearance or so here. This is where a actual picture of the real blade showing the back would be helpful for me.Next how about a pic of the closed model and then we can start talking about spacers and/or stand-offs and sizing and lock-ups....
Also, track down those measuring calipers and get a measurement on the area around the pivot point. Post that if you could. How much sanding, buffing or filling did you do in this area... We need this area, as Nebulae mentioned, to be flat and both sides of the blade to be parallel to each other. You can also check this with your calipers by holding the blade up to a light use the calipers tight to the blade to block the light and look for any rays getting through. If you are flat and paralell your calipers will move evenly...also put some blue lay-out dye or sharpie on the pivot area as you are checking this and if there is high spots they will show up as the scratched areas. Idealy you want no light, even movement of calipers and slight scratches across all your pivot area. Hope that makes sense.
Here is a cool build project on the forum to check out.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=733966
So, help me out with a pic of the actual blade and the closed model. Then do some checking on the blade thickness and let me know what you find.
Tomorrow may be tough for me so it maybe Monday before next post.
Rock on.
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Nah im not on my phone. The last picture that actually worked was the one of the kitchen knife your repairing and the bamboo handle.
Yeah, i traced the template blade off of the real one and shaved some of the butt of the knife off so it works with the pivot, its all good.
I wont be posting another picture until at least monday arvo because my stuffs at work. SO no worries there.
That is a cool build thread.
Yeah, i traced the template blade off of the real one and shaved some of the butt of the knife off so it works with the pivot, its all good.
I wont be posting another picture until at least monday arvo because my stuffs at work. SO no worries there.
That is a cool build thread.
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Tim,
How are you doing? I managed to catch a little sun. I also sent a note yesterday to one of the Moderators regarding the pictures. It is a very odd thing the pics show up fine on my laptop running vista. But when I look at this page on my desk top running XP they are not there...? I went back and edited the posts, deleted the pics and reentered them...same thing. I am doing exactly the same thing I did with the pics you can see. When I hear from the Moderator on this maybe they will have some ideas. If not I will try reposting the pics from my XP desk top.
Anyway when you have a chance post those pics and size of blade. I thought that was a cool build project too. Sweet knife by a great maker. Did you get any ideas from it?
How are you doing? I managed to catch a little sun. I also sent a note yesterday to one of the Moderators regarding the pictures. It is a very odd thing the pics show up fine on my laptop running vista. But when I look at this page on my desk top running XP they are not there...? I went back and edited the posts, deleted the pics and reentered them...same thing. I am doing exactly the same thing I did with the pics you can see. When I hear from the Moderator on this maybe they will have some ideas. If not I will try reposting the pics from my XP desk top.
Anyway when you have a chance post those pics and size of blade. I thought that was a cool build project too. Sweet knife by a great maker. Did you get any ideas from it?
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yeah, weird. I looked at them on the computer at work no worries. It's only XP.
Heres the pics.
Heres the pics.
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Tim,
Glad to hear you can see those pics. Looks pretty good on the model but I think we need to move the pivot point in the liner down (toward the finger side of handle) maybe 1-2 millimeter(s). When the blade is in the closed position it looks a little close to the top of the handle. Also, there is quite a bit of extra handle here at the back of the handle that could get thinned out. I would suggest trimming it down and get the handle profile just how it will be. clean up any bumps and so forth. Then you are going to need to pick a spacer material or stand off and get it on the list. Oh and I want to know too, kind of curious what you are going to do.
Glad to hear you can see those pics. Looks pretty good on the model but I think we need to move the pivot point in the liner down (toward the finger side of handle) maybe 1-2 millimeter(s). When the blade is in the closed position it looks a little close to the top of the handle. Also, there is quite a bit of extra handle here at the back of the handle that could get thinned out. I would suggest trimming it down and get the handle profile just how it will be. clean up any bumps and so forth. Then you are going to need to pick a spacer material or stand off and get it on the list. Oh and I want to know too, kind of curious what you are going to do.
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May seem somewhat tangential, but Ochs, as far as I'm concerned, you're never wasting your time with posts like these. Someone (probably many someones) will find all of this information useful, even if the intended target doesn't. I know I've been following this post.
