First knife plans

L

Lt.Col.Vortex

Joined
Jul 22, 2012
Messages
752
Hope this is the right place for this, if not sorry mods for making you work :)

OK, first I am a newb to knife making on the bases that I have never done it right before. I made my dad a boot knife 2 years ago for Christmas, but since I didn't use the right steels or even heat treat it, it turned into being a wall hanging. Now I'm back to try and do it the right way.
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I am a big Tom Clancy: Splinter Cell fan, and the main character ( Sam Fisher ) carries a WW2 Sykes Fairbains fighting knife for silent take downs when hes on his missions. I had been looking for a dagger type knife for some time and the only one I likes was the Gerber Mark2, which had less than stellar performance results. And further looking into the Sykes, I only had 2 options there...either buy an original one or get a reproduction. If I bought an original, the only action it would see is the duster as it hangs on my wall. And I've not found anything good about the reproductions either. So I decided to look into custom making my own Sykes/Mark2 knife.

This is where it starts becoming complicated and where potential problems begin. For starters, I am not going to buy any steel for this project. I dont have the money to spend on steel stock right now, nor do I even know if I'm going to have "the nack" for making knives. I plan on using old files for now. "Nicholson files are the best in carbon steel" is what I've heard. But it is 1095 steel, which for a newb is not exactly ideal.

So, with that said here is what I have planned mixed with some questions.

Thanks to wiki, I came across this little helpful piece of information
800px-Fmfrp_12_80_p69.png

It has about 90% of the knives specs there, but I'm going to make it to my liking anyhow so not having all the pieces is not an issue.

What do you guys suggest for annealing 1029 steal temperature wise, and how many times should I do it? I've read where guys heat it up then let it normalize more than once, should I do this? Basically whats the best way to anneal an old file.

Then when I quench, I plan on using motor or vegetable oil. I know there is specific quenching oil and that 1029 need to be cooled fast, but I know of guys who use motor and vegetable oil and it turns out just fine.

And tempering, I plan on using a oil bath to temper. The reason being is because I do not have a forge or an oven to keep a constant temperature, so I'll use an open fire in a oil bath to keep the temp relatively constant. And in case your wondering, we got rid of our stove about 4 years ago. It sucked up to much power, plus cooking on an open flame taste so much better. We haven't finished building out stone oven yet, so I'll have to use an open flame for all me heating.

Please correct me if I am wrong or need straitening in any of my plans. This project is still a few months out, so I got plenty of time to read more about knives.
 
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The stickies have a lot of info that will help you learn. I suggest reading them completely.

I will repeat my welcome from your other posting:

Welcome to Bladeforums.

I see you are into paintball and fantasy games. Here on bladeforums we have a lot of those, but in Shop Talk ( where yo are also posting), most are real world knife makers. Pretend killer commando knives and such will not get much help. Asking real question about how to make a real use knife is a better way to go.

( as a registered user, you don't get an avatar or signature)
 
I say start with a smaller more practical hunter or EDC for a while.

The Count's Standard Reply to New Knifemakers V26

The answer to a 13 year old student is different than to a 40 year old engineer.
We may recommend a local supplier, you may have a helpful neighbour, or local Hammerin; but that depends on where you are. We have members worldwide.
Please fill out your profile with your location (Country, State, City), age, education, employment, hobbies.

Look at the threads stickied not all are expired.

The basics in the simplest terms
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Printable PDF-Right Click and Save
Absolute Cheapskate Way to Start Making Knives-Website


Web Tutorials
Detailed instructions by Stacy E. Apelt

The Things I Advise New Knife Makers Against-Printable PDF

Handle Tutorial - Nick Wheeler-PDF

http://www.engnath.com/manframe.htm

Books
A list of books and videos

BladeForums - E-books or Google books


I like:
David Boye-Step by Step Knifemaking
Tim McCreight-Custom Knifemaking: 10 Projects from a Master Craftsman
Clear, well organized, widely available and inexpensive too.

Knife Design:

Think thin.
Forget swords, Saw-tooth spines, guthooks, crazy grinds and folders for your first knife.

Start with a drawing.
Show it to us, we love to see and comment on photos.
Then make a cardboard cutout template & draw in handles, pins and such
Then use wood, paint sticks are free & close to the right size.
If it “feels right”. If it feels right it usually “looks right“

How to post a photo on BF
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/742638-TUTORIAL-Displaying-your-photographs-on-BladeForums

See the Google books thread for Lloyd Harding drawings, the Loveless book & Bob Engnath Patterns. Google books thread

Bob Engnath Patterns compiled into a PDF


Forging Books:
Lorelei Sims-The Backyard Blacksmith
An excellent modern book with colour photos for forging - no specific knifemaking.

Jim Hrisoulas- has 3 books. Check for the cheaper paperback editions.
The Complete Bladesmith: Forging Your Way to Perfection
The Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry in Iron
The Master Bladesmith: Advanced Studies in Steel

Machine Shop Basics -Books:
Elementary Machine Shop Practice-Printable PDF

The Complete Practical Machinist-Printable -1885-PDF
Right Click and save link as.
It’s being reprinted now; you can get it for $20 ish

The $50 knife Shop
It confused me for a long time.
Forging is NOT necessary; you can just file and grind to create a knife (stock removal)

Forget the Goop Quench.
Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type; even grocery store canola oil works much better for some steels.

Junkyard steel requires skill and experience to identify and heat treat it properly.
Forget Lawnmower blades and start with a new known steel type.
Good heat treating needs accurate temperature control and full quench.
You can buy proper steel like 1084FG from Aldo very cheaply.

I like cable damascus, but that advanced project has no place in a beginner’s book.

The grinders are the best thing about this book, but there is a huge amount of info for 2x72” belt grinders on the web, including free plans.


Videos

Don't be this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEOTtslHARQ

Heat Treating Basics Video-downloadable
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Safety-video
Right click and save this. Watch it once a day for 10 days.

Many knifemaking videos are available, some better than others.

The best overall Knifemaking video I have seen is
“Steve Johnson-Making a Sub-Hilt Fighter”

Basic Bladesmithing
"Ed Caffrey - Basic Bladesmithing-Full DVD-ISO"

The best video on leather sheath making for beginners is
“Custom Knife Sheaths -Chuck Burrows - Wild Rose”
-(Paul Long has 2 videos, his sheath work & videos are fantastic, but more advanced-with inlays, machine stitching)

Green Pete's Free Video
Making a Mora bushcraft knife, stock removal, hand tools, neo tribal / unplugged heat treat.
Use a piece of known steel, not a file. I just post this as an example of doing it by hand with few tools.
"Green Pete" posted it free using torrent files.
Be sure to look at the other titles too. Use the keywords “LurkerLurker torrent” “knifemakerC torrent” and others
Greenpete Knifemaking Basics-on TPB

How to download that video
http://www.utorrent.com/help/guides/beginners-guide

See a list of video reviews at this rental company; some are worth buying, some renting…
http://smartflix.com/store/category/9/Knifemaking

Draw Filing Demonstration
YouTube video -Draw Filing-for a flat finish

Steel
The “welding steel” at Home Depot / Lowes… is useless for knives.
Forget about lawnmower blades ,files and other unknown junkyard steels.
For all the work involved, it is very cheap to buy and use a known good steel.

If you send out for heat treating, you can use
Oil quenched O1, 1095, 1084
Or air quenched A2, CM154, ATS34, CPM154, 440C, plus many others.

For heat treating yourself with minimal equipment, find some Eutectoid steel.
1084FG sold by Aldo Bruno is formulated for Knifemaking, Cheapest & made for DIY heat-treat.
http://njsteelbaron.com/
Phone # 862-203-8160

1095 is a good carbon steel, but a bad choice for a beginner with limited equipment.
1095 is "Hypereutectioid" and needs very precise temperature control and proper fast quench oil Like Parks 50 or Houghton K Kevin Cashen - 1095 - hypereutectoid steel

If you are sending one or 2 knives out for heat treatment, use 154-CM or CPM-154 or CPM-s35vn and ship it out to TKS -Texas Knifemaker Supply
It's the cheapest way to do 1 or 2 because of HT minimum charges.

Suppliers List
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=699736

Heat Treating
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9143684&postcount=7

You can send blades out for heat treating at $10 or $15 per blade for perfect results, and avoid buying the equipment.

Air Hardening Stainless Steel Only
Buck Pau Bos -Be sure to check the Shipping and Price tabs.
http://www.buckknives.com/index.cfm?event=bio.paulBos#
http://www.texasknife.com/vcom/privacy.php#services

Oil Hardening Carbon Steels and Air Hardening Stainless Steel
http://www.petersheattreat.com/cutlery.html
http://www.knifemaker.ca/ (Canadian)
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/member.php/246861-darrin-sanders


Quenchants for Oil hardening steel
Forget the Goop Quench. Motor oil, it's toxic and doesn't work that well.

Use commercial quench oil & match oil speed to the steel type;

Grocery store canola oil works well enough for your first knife-if you use the right steel.

Brine and water are almost free, and technically correct for W1 and "water hardening" steels but a fast oil like Parks 50 and Houghton Houghto Quench K are less likely to give you broken blades.
If you use water or brine, expect to hear a "tink" and have a cracked or broken blade

Glue – Epoxy
Use a new package of slow setting, high strength epoxy to attach blades to handles and well as seal out moisture.
Surface Prep is vital, drill tang holes/ grind a hollow, roughen the surfaces with abrasive, blasting is best.
Ensure the surface is clean & no oil including fingerprints. Soap, Acetone & Alcohol, Blasting.
Clamp with moderate pressure= avoid a “glue starved joint” when all the adhesive is squeezed out.
These are well proven.
Brownell's Acraglas
West Systems G Flex
JB Weld


Grinder / Tools

In my opinion, variable speed and a small wheel attachment are essential on a good grinder.
You can almost always improve tracking with more belt tension. It needs to be way tighter than you first think.

Hand Tools
You can do it all by hand with files and abrasive cloth like the Green Pete video.
Files can be made from unhardenable steel, or steel similar to 1095 that needs a difficult HT
Just use 1084 instead of a file.

Photo of a nice bevel filing jig
http://www.flemingknives.com/imagesPrime/FileStation/KPicB007.jpg

Entry Level Grinders
Many makers start with the Sears Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder

[URL=" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qfYT_m2Tw0"] Low Speed Modification Craftsman 2x42 belt grinder


Commercial Production 2 x 72” Belt Grinder Reviews
http://www.prometheanknives.com/shop-techniques-3/grinders
http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCKnifeMakingGrinders.htm


DIY 2 x 72” Belt Grinders

KMG Clone Free Plans
http://www.dfoggknives.com/PDF/GrinderPlans.pdf

NWG No Weld Grinder
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/plans-for-the-no-weld-grinder-sander-nearly-50-pages-p-723.html

EERF Grinder (EERF =“Free” backwards)
http://wilmontgrinders.com/EERFGrinder.aspx
http://blindhogg.com/blueprints.html

Buy the kit
http://polarbearforge.com/grinder_kit.html

What Belts to buy?
http://www.usaknifemaker.com/abrasive-belt-basics-what-kind-should-i-buy-p-1393.html



VFD Variable Speed made simple

Simplest, and cheapest are hardly ever the same, but:
Step pulleys are not as cheap as you may think
Maska cast steel pulleys are good and well balanced $75 EACH here plus shaft, bearings, belt

It all adds up to about 1/2 the price of a KBAC-27D

I like direct drive, no belts and a VFD for about $200 over the price of the step pulleys with much finer control.

Yes you can get cheaper NEMA 1 VFD’s and build your own enclosure
Or you may find them cheaper at other retailers, but watch shipping.

Wayne Coe
http://www.waynecoeartistblacksmith.com/Motors___VFDs.html
VFD-
KBAC-27D

Motor
3 phase 220v 1.5 HP motor, TEFC, frame 56 or 56C,
RPM is up to you many are happy with a 1700 RPM running at double speed.
Make sure it has a footed base for the KMG and NWG, or a C flange face mount for Bader and GIB styles.
I get them on ebay, even with paying $80 for shipping to Canada I save $$$ on a used motor.


The 1.5 HP combination is the most common setup, as reported by Rob Frink in some thread somewhere
It allows you to plug into any 110vac, 15 amp outlet.
A 2 HP motor requires a 220vac input.

There are cheaper VFD units like the TECO, but the only VFD I have found that will run a 1.5 HP motor on a 110v 15 amp input is the KBAC27D

It is NEMA4, sealed from metal dust that can burnout the unit.
It has good community and company support, manuals, hook-up diagrams, photos and settings on Rob Frink’s website.

I like the fact that I can buy it from a local distributor in Canada.

Travis W reported being able to run a 2 HP on a 110v circuit, but I haven’t tried it.

Hookup is dead simple
http://www.beaumontmetalworks.com/VS-setup.html



Safety Equipment
Protect your -Eyes, Ears, Fingers, and Lungs – remove jewellery and use safety gear.

Respirators
Chronic lung disease and cancer really suck the joy out of life.
Ggoogle "Ed Caffrey lung cancer"

The minimum I would consider are the 3M 7500 and North 7700 silicone half masks with a P100 Filter.
Use a VOC & P100 combo cartridge for protection against acetone and solvents.
There are also prefilters that snap over the main filter for longer life.
There are 3 sizes, buy one in person at a safety supplier and get it fitted.

For beards, pick one of these
3M PAPR
Resp-O-Rator
3m Breathe Easy
Trend Airshield Pro
Air Cap II


Searching
Search works for ALL users
Try it, I’ll bet you’re not the first to ask the question here

This is a special Google page that searches BF only & works better than the forum search.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra

V26 July 24, 2012
Trimmed to fit the 1,500 character limit and simplify links.

Countavatar.jpg
 
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The diagram you pulled from WIKI is deceptively simple. It looks easy and straightforward, but that type of blade is actually fairly challenging to execute, especially if you have no tools to work with. Using a file as a base for this knife is probably not the best way to go, but I won't try to talk you out of that. What I will say is think carefully about what you are trying to accomplish and how you see yourself getting there.

The dagger in the diagram is an exercise in symmetry. It has four FLAT bevels, and you'll need a way to remove metal that creates consistent flat surfaces of the same angle on both sides of the blade. How are you going to do that? What tools will you use? The first thing that comes to most newbies minds is a bench grinder... but they use round wheels. How do you see that generating consistent flat surfaces? The second thing that comes to mind is files. Same question... how will you control the files and the work piece in order to create consistent flat surfaces?

Most newbs worry about the heat treat before they even have anything to heat treat. That's fine... you'll need to figure it out eventually, but you have other problems to solve first. If you get too far ahead of yourself you'll probably end up rushing through important early steps just to get to the thing you've invested so much mental energy into. My advice is set the concerns about HT aside for now, and think about how to make the blade.

The one in your diagram has a through-tang... probably using a piece of threaded rod. Is that what you will do? Think about how you plan to attach your handle, and what it means in terms of how much tang you need to have on the blade. If you want to make a take-down or through-tang, think about how that threaded piece will be made or attached. All that needs to be worked out before heat treat.

You mentioned you aren't concerned about not having all the parts... which suggests you either have an alternative in mind, or you're about to make a big mistake. If you have an alternative, great... but be sure you've got the parts made and fitting together before the heat treat. Making changes to the blade post HT to accomodate things like fitting a guard are challenging at best, and can potentially ruin your HT.

So again, slow down... take your time... solve the problems as they come. Don't try to rush to HT.
 
Thank you all very much for your input. And 1029 is a huge typo, sorry. 1095 is more like it :)

I love stickies, I've only read about half of them though. But to be honest, it starts to become overwhelming. That is why I joined, so I could ask specific questions as I furthered my reading in knife making.

Count, I have come across your write up several times. It is very well thought out and well written. Thank you.

tryppyr, I know a file is not the preferred material among makers, neither is spring steel ( from trailers and trucks ). But I have come to find out that they are more than adequate for a first timer such as myself. Yes I would love to get my hands on knife steel, that way I know exactly what I have...but right now I just want to get a bit of experience under my belt.

I have been going ever some methods of construction, but it looks like I'll just have to bite the bullet and get a belt grinder. Either that or make a jig and file away.... taking a few weeks to do that though.

Yes, a through-tang is what I am going to do. But my plan is to use a die and cut some threads onto the rear of the tang. That way I can have a one piece blade-tang, then just slide my handle part or parts on. Then all I would need is a female threaded, weighted heel/pommel to balance the knife properly.

Other than basic carpentry, mechanics and other trade skills, I am not well versed in metallurgy. I know my tools and how to use them confidently, thats what gives me the ability to try my hand at new things. I may not know everything ( yet :) ), but I know how to ask questions an how to use Google :)
 
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When I heat the steel to anneal, should I let it air cool or leave it in the ashes ( or in my case, i planned on putting it in some pre heated sand ). I've read where both have been done to 1095 steel and was wondering which is better.
 
Look up Kevin Cashen's "working the three steels" sticky. It explains it in there.

I believe, believe, that for a hypereutectoid steel like 1095 you heat to above austenizing temp, then cool slowly until black hot (900*F?), then quench.

Can someone check my method on that please? I don't want to spread bad information.
 
The link I provided above. Making a knife from a smile sticky has clear instructions on how to anneal a file...
 
Vortex, I know that using a file as not the best material has been mentioned, but I will mention it again. In buying known steel, the cost for the steel is a tiny fraction of the cost of a diy knife. You will put sweat, tears, and in all probability blood into making this knife. If I were you I would really give some thought to buying some known steel. Aldo has some 3/16 1084 for under 25 bucks that would make 4 of the knives you are looking at making. Plus you can heat treat yourself with fairly good results with some tricks in count's reply.

So in summary:
$25.00 in steel / 4 = $6.50 for this knife
profiling the knife w/hacksaw = 1-2 hours
filing in the bevels in an accurate fashion like tryppyr is talking about = 2-10 hours
handle wood and fasteners = $5
gluing/assembling the handle and blade = 1 hour
shaping and finishing handle = 1-2 hours

There is plenty more I left out, like properly annealing your file, and properly hardening 1095, but $6.50 for blade material is the least of your costs...

My 2 cents...
 
"The link I provided above."

Yep yep, working on reading just about every sticky on the forum :) :)

As for buying steels, thats now out of the question..at least for a few months. After spending a couple hundred bucks on truck breaks and a new camera for work, and now we learned that the trucks whole front suspension is shot, thats another grand or so. So there is over $2,000 spent that we didn't have in the first place, gona be a while till we can dig out of this one. Not saying I wont buy steel, but this project just got prolonged a few months :(
 
PM me your address and the approximate size your first knife is gonna be and I'll send you a piece of steel to make it. I'll also heat treat it for you when its ready. My email address and telephone number are listed below. Feel free to email or call when you have a problem or question. I used to drive trucks and still do for a few days during harvest season when some of my farming friends get in a bind and can't find a driver. I also owned one and know very well about repair bills.
 
darrin sanders said:
PM me your address and the approximate size your first knife is gonna be and I'll send you a piece of steel to make it. I'll also heat treat it for you when its ready. Feel free to email or call when you have a problem or question
Click to expand...
Darrin, not trying to de-rail the OP's original thread, but allow me to say that I have seen many posts from you over the last couple of years, and I must say that you come across as one of the "Good-Guys".

Hopefully someday we can meet, shake hands, have a cold glass of tea, and discuss how we feel about the southern way of treating other people. Good on ya pal.

Robert
 
darrin sanders said:
PM me your address and the approximate size your first knife is gonna be and I'll send you a piece of steel to make it. I'll also heat treat it for you when its ready. My email address and telephone number are listed below. Feel free to email or call when you have a problem or question. I used to drive trucks and still do for a few days during harvest season when some of my farming friends get in a bind and can't find a driver. I also owned one and know very well about repair bills.
Click to expand...

I very much appreciate the offer and I really hate to turn you down. Right now all I'm seeking is knowledge...here is a short back story...

Over the past couple years, it has been my families goal to move to some desolate place in south Texas. ( for reasons I wont go into right now ) We plan to live completely curacy and grid free. I'm not talking solar powered everything, I mean 100% alone in the middle of no where. We've had a farm here in south Georgia for about 10 years, and we're still perfecting it every day. We need to be completely self sufficient, and thats where knowledge of just about everything becomes important. How to build a house, now to make knives, now to dray water from 100 feet under ground with no electric pumps. People did this sort of thing for many generations before us, and we intend to do the same.

The reason I joined this forum is because it has so much good metal information on it, not just knife info. I hope to glean as much as possible from you guys. So thanks again for the generous offer, but I will decline.
 
To Mr. Vortex, the offer stands, so if you ever change your mind just let me know.

To Mr. Dark, I try to treat people the way I want to be treated. I have always been a fan of your work and I too look forward to that cold glass o' tea and a conversation. I hope it happens sooner than later.
 
Sorry to meet a question with another question, but for the knife you made for your father, was it all hand tooled? I'm asking because I plan to make my first knife soon, but I need to wait till either Christmas or spring (depending on my luck) to get a belt sander, and your first knife looked very nice.
 
Conne, not to derail the thread further, but send an email to Greg/tryypr and ask to see pictures of what can be done with hand tools. Seriously.
 
There was s thread on here late last year about knives made with hand tools only - some seriously impressive stuff...
 
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