Fixed Angle System That Can Do Sword Length Blades?

[AlongTheRazorsEdge]

A couple things I've noticed since looking into these various systems is, it is extremely frustrating..for the following reasons:

- Lack of information of advantages/disadvantages/features of one system over another, even between the same manufacturers models. What the heck is the difference between the models?? Will one do what I need and another not? It's overwhelming.

- Seems like systems are sold out like crazy, who is buying all these precision sharpeners? Most people buy $20 knives from walmart or local sporting goods stores and never sharpen them, many others insist on hand sharpening exclusively. How many people are really dropping $150-$1,500 + on precision systems??

- Parts and/or accessories that are required to do certain tasks with various systems and are not included are sold out sporadically. It's like half of what you need is availible, the other half is sold out and there is no idea of when or if they will ever be availible again? Buying an expensive system that you can't use because a specialized clamp (for example) is unobtanium is a huge turn off and risky gamble. This is why I prefer to stay away from propietary parts as much as possible. Evidently KME has a universal stone holder..cool..because if you can't find the KME pattern stone you need, then you can use another brand that's availible hopefully, the only problem..can you find the universal stone holder in stock? SMH! Granted you could improvise a "stone" in various ways in a pinch.

ETA: Kind of venting a bit..the confusion is probably more due to my lack of exhaustive research and availibility is likely due to less production rather than high volume sales admittedly. The parts/accessory availibility is very frustrating though.

 

[000Robert]

Definitely pretty cool, both figuratively and literally being water cooled ( :

This is probably way too involved for me, my skill level and availible space. Being powered opens up the possibility of screwing things up very quickly and you are still feeding by hand, increasing the chances of human error imo. I like the systems that clamp the work piece at zero and are fixed angle using a telescoping arm because you are eliminating many potential points of human error. Basically, idiot proof (or as close to it) is best for this idiot (me) lol.

The main criterion for me was that the system did not require electricity to operate. And I agree with you about clamping the blade at zero. With the Wicked Edge, we can work both bevels without moving the blade in the clamp.

 

[scottc3]

Evidently KME has a universal stone holder..cool..because if you can't find the KME pattern stone you need, then you can use another brand that's availible hopefully, the only problem..can you find the universal stone holder in stock?

KME has the magnetic Axe tool in stock and Gritomatic has the after market aluminum KME stone holder for longer stones in stock. What else do you need, or info you are looking for? I have a bunch of parts for my kit, maybe I can help?

 

[scottc3]

Keep an eye on Gadgets and Gear in Exchange for KME system. If I can find my 1st gen gritomatic aluminum stone holder, I can sell it to you to save a few bucks, if your in US, or you pay for shipping after 10 bucks.

 

[AlongTheRazorsEdge]

KME has the magnetic Axe tool in stock and Gritomatic has the after market aluminum KME stone holder for longer stones in stock. What else do you need, or info you are looking for? I have a bunch of parts for my kit, maybe I can help?

Thank brother, you all have been a great help which I really appreciate.

I think I'm going to go ahead and order the KME axe kit and universal stone holder. I have plenty of axes and axe like tools I can use it on and if it works well with sword length blades, then that is a bonus. One accessory I was looking for for the KME is the ceramic hone that is optimal for recurved blades, I haven't been able to find that. But with a universal stone holder, it seems many more recurve sharpening options open up. I am also considering picking up a Hapstone, which may be able to do longer blades and certainly will sharpen shorter blades. The Hapstone comes ready for multiple stone styles including the KME and EdgePro stones, has thickness compensation out of the box etc.

 

[Spey]

If I'm picturing this correctly, the axe head is set up on a table in front of (not actually on or directly to) the EdgePro. The axe is then raised to allow the EdgePro's arm to reach beyond the EdgePro's base and contact the cutting edge of the axe without interference?

NO.
RE: Post #16 - every reference I made to "table" was in reference to the blade-table of the EdgePro.
Axe/Hawk, etc. rests on the blade-table during sharpening same as a knife would.
I thought Step 2a was fairly clear on this "2) a) Lay head on table, bit laying on front edge of EP table."

Sorry for late reply, I got no Alert for your reply :-/

EDIT: Just capped a couple pics to help illustrate the simplicity.
Typically haft is not in head when sharpening (here only to quickly cap couple illustrative pics), but have done axes with 36" handles attached using this method.

Pic-1:
FH on table in sharpening position.
1) Strip the table of any attachments (scissor attachment maybe 3b).
2) a) Lay head on table, bit laying on front edge of EP table.
3) a) Place block/strip of wood (or ...) under bit such that centerline of bit is parallel to table (painters tape to secure block).
NOTE: collar-stop on stone-arm-mast used to easily keep sharpening angle consistent when using stones of varying thickness during a progression.


Pic-2:
Stone resting on bit in sharpening position, as would be during sharpening.
Stone-arm-mast collar-stop thumb-set-screw just behind wood haft on right.


Hopefully, pic-2 illustrates how simple it would be to add segmented bevels by simply changing the stone-arm elevation.
Example: from pic-2 with fully apexed 15dps bevels (30°inc), drop the stone-arm to say 10-12dps, then 5-10dps for a segmented-tri-bevel that would become a controlled convex very easily.
Kind of like doing a three angle valve job on an engine cylinder head, then blending or radiusing the bevels.

I am still in the test/comparison phase these two heads FH vs HBH, so have not convexed either yet.

 

[AlongTheRazorsEdge]

NO.
RE: Post #16 - every reference I made to "table" was in reference to the blade-table of the EdgePro.
Axe/Hawk, etc. rests on the blade-table during sharpening same as a knife would.
I thought Step 2a was fairly clear on this "2) a) Lay head on table, bit laying on front edge of EP table."

Sorry for late reply, I got no Alert for your reply :-/

EDIT: Just capped a couple pics to help illustrate the simplicity.
Typically haft is not in head when sharpening (here only to quickly cap couple illustrative pics), but have done axes with 36" handles attached using this method.

Pic-1:
FH on table in sharpening position.
1) Strip the table of any attachments (scissor attachment maybe 3b).
2) a) Lay head on table, bit laying on front edge of EP table.
3) a) Place block/strip of wood (or ...) under bit such that centerline of bit is parallel to table (painters tape to secure block).
NOTE: collar-stop on stone-arm-mast used to easily keep sharpening angle consistent when using stones of varying thickness during a progression.
View attachment 1889537

Pic-2:
Stone resting on bit in sharpening position, as would be during sharpening.
Stone-arm-mast collar-stop thumb-set-screw just behind wood haft on right.
View attachment 1889541

Hopefully, pic-2 illustrates how simple it would be to add segmented bevels by simply changing the stone-arm elevation.
Example: from pic-2 with fully apexed 15dps bevels (30°inc), drop the stone-arm to say 10-12dps, then 5-10dps for a segmented-tri-bevel that would become a controlled convex very easily.
Kind of like doing a three angle valve job on an engine cylinder head, then blending or radiusing the bevels.

I am still in the test/comparison phase these two heads FH vs HBH, so have not convexed either yet.

Wow, yeah I was way off smh! Thank you for posting the pics. And yes, I can see how easy it would be to merge multiple bevels into an accurate and repeatable convex. Excellent!

 

[AlongTheRazorsEdge]

NO.
RE: Post #16 - every reference I made to "table" was in reference to the blade-table of the EdgePro.
Axe/Hawk, etc. rests on the blade-table during sharpening same as a knife would.
I thought Step 2a was fairly clear on this "2) a) Lay head on table, bit laying on front edge of EP table."

Sorry for late reply, I got no Alert for your reply :-/

EDIT: Just capped a couple pics to help illustrate the simplicity.
Typically haft is not in head when sharpening (here only to quickly cap couple illustrative pics), but have done axes with 36" handles attached using this method.

Pic-1:
FH on table in sharpening position.
1) Strip the table of any attachments (scissor attachment maybe 3b).
2) a) Lay head on table, bit laying on front edge of EP table.
3) a) Place block/strip of wood (or ...) under bit such that centerline of bit is parallel to table (painters tape to secure block).
NOTE: collar-stop on stone-arm-mast used to easily keep sharpening angle consistent when using stones of varying thickness during a progression.
View attachment 1889537

Pic-2:
Stone resting on bit in sharpening position, as would be during sharpening.
Stone-arm-mast collar-stop thumb-set-screw just behind wood haft on right.
View attachment 1889541

Hopefully, pic-2 illustrates how simple it would be to add segmented bevels by simply changing the stone-arm elevation.
Example: from pic-2 with fully apexed 15dps bevels (30°inc), drop the stone-arm to say 10-12dps, then 5-10dps for a segmented-tri-bevel that would become a controlled convex very easily.
Kind of like doing a three angle valve job on an engine cylinder head, then blending or radiusing the bevels.

I am still in the test/comparison phase these two heads FH vs HBH, so have not convexed either yet.

Spey, which EdgePro system is that with flat table? And what material is the table/body made of? Either that specific table or EdgePro in general. Some pics I've seen the table looks like plastic, some pics it looks like it could be aluminum.

 

[AlongTheRazorsEdge]

Another general fixed angle system question..regarding thickness compensators, maintaining a specific angle when using various thickness stones; it would seem that they really aren't necessary and that the angle could just be re set on a system using a digital angle finder. In other words set angle with each stone as if you were begining with the next grit, rather than moving up to that grit from the previous one. Would this idea be accurate?

 

[Spey]

Spey, which EdgePro system is that with flat table? And what material is the table/body made of? Either that specific table or EdgePro in general. Some pics I've seen the table looks like plastic, some pics it looks like it could be aluminum.

The one in my picture above is clone version of the EdgePro Pro version vs the EdgePro Apex version. Both the Standard (aka Apex version) & Pro versions of the EdgePro have flat tables with a step in the back where the stone-arm-mast secures. The Epx version only has one tilted position (when used in the factory standard orientation, but can be set up in many alternate ways). When I say flat, I do NOT mean level. Perhaps you meant to say level, to which I would respond the EdgePro Pro Version has a suction cup base (Pana-Vise) and adjustable table-post that allows the table to be at any angle including level (which is how I typically run my table, and as you see in picture above). I find that with a level table, it is much easier to keep track of what you are working on especially when doing more complex grinds like the segmented bevels I have previously referenced.

Table on mine made from an injection molded plastic of some type, similar to the Apex version. The OEM Pro version table I think is made of UHMW.

Below is a link to the Pro version where you can see the Pana-Vise Base and how it can tilt to users needs/wants.
Below is also a link to the PanaVise as reference for you. I also have a complete separate Pana-Vise that I use for various needs sharpening, etc.

EdgePro Pro Version

Pana-Vise

 

[Spey]

Another general fixed angle system question..regarding thickness compensators, maintaining a specific angle when using various thickness stones; it would seem that they really aren't necessary and that the angle could just be re set on a system using a digital angle finder. In other words set angle with each stone as if you were begining with the next grit, rather than moving up to that grit from the previous one. Would this idea be accurate?

In my experience, I would say NO.
EVERY time a person measures something there is a chance for an error (learned from decades in trade work as a contractor). It is ok to measure something 3x, 5x, etc., but once you confirm your setup, no need to measure again.
A contractor example of using the collar-stop method would be like a Framer measuring and cutting studs to build a wall, or joists for a floor. Measure and cut one, then use as a pattern for all others of same size to eliminate any chance of error.

The references I have made above relate to using the "collar stop" method. I set up a stone angle of attack (stone to blade), only once measuring with digital gauge, only once either using first or last stone in a progression, then proceed through all stones (of varying thickness), and finish with wood strops. It makes the process simple, fast, and accurate and allows me to focus on watching every stroke result on bevel to develop the bevel instead of taking measurements (which are an opportunity to make a mistake). Even if my table gets moved, goes out of level, etc., does not change the process once the first setting of the collar-stop. So long as collar-stop position is not changed, I could come back to same knife 3-months later, select any stone I want, and touch-up a blade or even go back to say a 120-grit and start a new progression.

Do a search on EdgePro Collar Stop method and watch a few videos if needed to understand the process.

 

[AlongTheRazorsEdge]

The one in my picture above is clone version of the EdgePro Pro version vs the EdgePro Apex version. Both the Standard (aka Apex version) & Pro versions of the EdgePro have flat tables with a step in the back where the stone-arm-mast secures. The Epx version only has one tilted position (when used in the factory standard orientation, but can be set up in many alternate ways). When I say flat, I do NOT mean level. Perhaps you meant to say level, to which I would respond the EdgePro Pro Version has a suction cup base (Pana-Vise) and adjustable table-post that allows the table to be at any angle including level (which is how I typically run my table, and as you see in picture above). I find that with a level table, it is much easier to keep track of what you are working on especially when doing more complex grinds like the segmented bevels I have previously referenced.

Table on mine made from an injection molded plastic of some type, similar to the Apex version. The OEM Pro version table I think is made of UHMW.

Below is a link to the Pro version where you can see the Pana-Vise Base and how it can tilt to users needs/wants.
Below is also a link to the PanaVise as reference for you. I also have a complete separate Pana-Vise that I use for various needs sharpening, etc.

EdgePro Pro Version

Pana-Vise

UHMW polymer is super dense, that is good news. From the pics I've seen it was hard to tell if the table was some sort of plastic/polymer or possibly cast aluminum. The two folding legs at the forward (towards operator) end looked like they could have been extruded aluminum.

I am familiar with pana-vise as used in the electronics industry.

Thank you Spey!

In my experience, I would say NO.
EVERY time a person measures something there is a chance for an error (learned from decades in trade work as a contractor). It is ok to measure something 3x, 5x, etc., but once you confirm your setup, no need to measure again.
A contractor example of using the collar-stop method would be like a Framer measuring and cutting studs to build a wall, or joists for a floor. Measure and cut one, then use as a pattern for all others of same size to eliminate any chance of error.

The references I have made above relate to using the "collar stop" method. I set up a stone angle of attack (stone to blade), only once measuring with digital gauge, only once either using first or last stone in a progression, then proceed through all stones (of varying thickness), and finish with wood strops. It makes the process simple, fast, and accurate and allows me to focus on watching every stroke result on bevel to develop the bevel instead of taking measurements (which are an opportunity to make a mistake). Even if my table gets moved, goes out of level, etc., does not change the process once the first setting of the collar-stop. So long as collar-stop position is not changed, I could come back to same knife 3-months later, select any stone I want, and touch-up a blade or even go back to say a 120-grit and start a new progression.

Do a search on EdgePro Collar Stop method and watch a few videos if needed to understand the process.

I will search for those vids and check them out, thank you!

 

[Natlek]

A couple things I've noticed since looking into these various systems is, it is extremely frustrating..for the following reasons:

- Lack of information of advantages/disadvantages/features of one system over another, even between the same manufacturers models. What the heck is the difference between the models?? Will one do what I need and another not? It's overwhelming.

- Seems like systems are sold out like crazy, who is buying all these precision sharpeners? Most people buy $20 knives from walmart or local sporting goods stores and never sharpen them, many others insist on hand sharpening exclusively. How many people are really dropping $150-$1,500 + on precision systems??

- Parts and/or accessories that are required to do certain tasks with various systems and are not included are sold out sporadically. It's like half of what you need is availible, the other half is sold out and there is no idea of when or if they will ever be availible again? Buying an expensive system that you can't use because a specialized clamp (for example) is unobtanium is a huge turn off and risky gamble. This is why I prefer to stay away from propietary parts as much as possible. Evidently KME has a universal stone holder..cool..because if you can't find the KME pattern stone you need, then you can use another brand that's availible hopefully, the only problem..can you find the universal stone holder in stock? SMH! Granted you could improvise a "stone" in various ways in a pinch.

ETA: Kind of venting a bit..the confusion is probably more due to my lack of exhaustive research and availibility is likely due to less production rather than high volume sales admittedly. The parts/accessory availibility is very frustrating though.

Why you don t make one ? It is very simple tool to make ? I have several of them all different but i like this one most . Extend it long as you need for sword , use double clamps and that is that ??

 

[Spey]

Will search for those vids and check them out, thank you!

Scroll to the 6:45 mark in circa-2011 video link below to watch jdavis illustrate using a drill-collar stop to adjust for varied stone thickness during a stone progression.

I believe the legs on the EdgePro Apex are also injection molded plastic, like the table (not aluminum, per your reference). Materials qualities on the Pro version a better across all components.

EdgePro Tips

 

[AlongTheRazorsEdge]

Scroll to the 6:45 mark in circa-2011 video link below to watch jdavis illustrate using a drill-collar stop to adjust for varied stone thickness during a stone progression.

I believe the legs on the EdgePro Apex are also injection molded plastic, like the table (not aluminum, per your reference). Materials qualities on the Pro version a better across all components.

EdgePro Tips

Thank you Spey. That vid clearly explained using the stop for maintaining the angle when switching stones of various thicknesses.

I was also watching another vid that highlighted the pana-vise portion of the pro model. If I were to go with an EdgePro, I would likely go for the pro version for the materials upgrades and stability.

 

[AlongTheRazorsEdge]

Why you don t make one ? It is very simple tool to make ? I have several of them all different but i like this one most . Extend it long as you need for sword , use double clamps and that is that ??

Awesome work!

That is similar to the KAK Britva system I originally was looking to buy; with the horizontal rod for the stone holding rod to travel along and accurately maintain angle over very large blades. The KAK Britva takes it a step further (granted, at a significant cost $$$); using two horizontal rods for articulation, which allows variable angle to be set along the blade. For example; you can set it to be 15° towards the tip ending in a 25° towards the guard/handle with one setting. Not really something I'd use, but I hear some sabers and cutlasses are sharpened to those types of specs.

How much of that setup are parts availible off the shelf? I have no access to machine equipment like lathes and mills. The wood base and hardware wouldnt be hard to source or make, but the blocks that travel and lock on the vertical rods to set angle would be a challenge without machine equipment. Also how is the wooden cross block attached to the base?

Do you happen to have build plans or a parts list?

 

[Natlek]

Awesome work!

That is similar to the KAK Britva system I originally was looking to buy; with the horizontal rod for the stone holding rod to travel along and accurately maintain angle over very large blades. The KAK Britva takes it a step further (granted, at a significant cost $$$); using two horizontal rods for articulation, which allows variable angle to be set along the blade. For example; you can set it to be 15° towards the tip ending in a 25° towards the guard/handle with one setting. Not really something I'd use, but I hear some sabers and cutlasses are sharpened to those types of specs.

How much of that setup are parts availible off the shelf? I have no access to machine equipment like lathes and mills. The wood base and hardware wouldnt be hard to source or make, but the blocks that travel and lock on the vertical rods to set angle would be a challenge without machine equipment. Also how is the wooden cross block attached to the base?

Do you happen to have build plans or a parts list?

Thanks !
I make that thing in half hour from what I have around my shop Sorry no build plans ,but you don t need them to build something like this .
All you need is small drill press to drill straight holes in blocks that travel on the vertical rods . You can buy some square rod from aluminium and you can cut blocks from that and then just drill holes on right place and make thread for lock bolts.
All wood parts are glued but you can use some bolts for wood from bottom side ..Wood is thermally treated walnut , which is used to make furniture, it is very stable after that process . But you can use other wood of course .For clamp bolt I installed metal thread insert before i glued them to base .Look picture .........
You can easy make this tool to sharpen variable angle........... look at the drawing . Sorry , but my English is not very good when I need to explain technical things .Ask if something is not clear , I'll be glad to help you
PS . This is tool and it doesn't have to look nice if it does what it was made for .

if you want variable sharpening angle......................

There is that metal thread insert

 

[Natlek]

If making blocks is complicated to you here is simple solution which will work, just drill several holes and push steel rod inside

 

[AlongTheRazorsEdge]

Thanks !
I make that thing in half hour from what I have around my shop Sorry no build plans ,but you don t need them to build something like this .
All you need is small drill press to drill straight holes in blocks that travel on the vertical rods . You can buy some square rod from aluminium and you can cut blocks from that and then just drill holes on right place and make thread for lock bolts.
All wood parts are glued but you can use some bolts for wood from bottom side ..Wood is thermally treated walnut , which is used to make furniture, it is very stable after that process . But you can use other wood of course .For clamp bolt I installed metal thread insert before i glued them to base .Look picture .........
You can easy make this tool to sharpen variable angle........... look at the drawing . Sorry , but my English is not very good when I need to explain technical things .Ask if something is not clear , I'll be glad to help you
PS . This is tool and it doesn't have to look nice if it does what it was made for .

if you want variable sharpening angle......................

There is that metal thread insert

Very interesting. I agree that it doesn't matter what it looks like as long as it works properly, but that set up looks great to me! Thank you for the explanation on the blocks, they look like they were made commercially in your pics. Drilling a few holes and tapping for a set screw isn't beyond my skill level. I may try this out in the future if for no other reason than it is a cool project.

By the way, I understand your english fine. Thank you!

 

[Natlek]

Very interesting. I agree that it doesn't matter what it looks like as long as it works properly, but that set up looks great to me! Thank you for the explanation on the blocks, they look like they were made commercially in your pics. Drilling a few holes and tapping for a set screw isn't beyond my skill level. I may try this out in the future if for no other reason than it is a cool project.

By the way, I understand your english fine. Thank you!

They used to be part of a car's braking system ,I just enlarge existing holes . Vertical rods are from old shock absorbers , carbon fiber rod is from my old sleeping tent for fishing trips . I am car mechanic , so .............