Flat, hollow or convex grind?

KGD- I agree that everyone has their own experiences in the outdoors. Kvaughn has a number of years in the outdoors and is still here to talk about it. His never having the need to baton is his choice, many people believe it is not a proper use for a knife. That is their own choice. I happen to disagree, a knife is a tool that should never be misused, and in my opinion, batonning is not harmful to a knife. Using a knife as a pry bar in my opinion is. At least with my knives. I know there are knives out there that claim to be extremely strong in that area, but I would rather have incredible edge retention personally. If I look at a job that needs doing, and I think my knife could possibly not be up for it, I use another tool, or when in a survival situation another tool may not be handy, I find another way. To me it makes no sense to risk breaking a knife. Batonning is great, I do a lot of it, as long as the knife is full tang, it works well.
 
Flat or convex, either is fine by me. I like the final edge bevel to be a flat V grind personally, I carry a pocket stone in the field so a convex edge will just get flattened anyway.
 
For me, it's convex all the way. Way too easy for me to get sharp without trying.

Next up would be flat/Scandi grind. What could be easier than laying a knife flat on its side and making circles?? Gotta get a Helle one of these days from Ragnar.

I wanted to added that you guys that don't have a Mora don't know what you're missing. I convexed mine and it's sharp as all get out. I realize that it isn't convex the whole width of the blade, like say a Barkie, but still what a great knife!
 
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For a survival knife, not a pry bar, but a cutting tool that you can use in most any wilderness survival situation would you go for a flat convex or hollow grind? Something like the woodlore that ray mears loves so much or a dozier hollow ground? What grind works best for you?

I sometimes get a bit cranky defending batoning. Its not that I actually use it so much, I like an axe most of the time when I'm actually chopping wood. Sometimes I like to have just a knife and when I can do what I can with a hatchet & knife with just a knife, I am also happy. The whole right tool for the right job is fine if you are the type with a designer kitchen and a thousand and one electric gadgets for preparing food. Or you can have a can opener, chef's knife and stout paring knife and do the same stuff. Right tool for the right job or multitool for all the jobs, its really everyones decision.

Back to your original question. Flat convex is something I really like. I think it slices great, has good strength and general utilitity for a variety of tasks. There sure as heck isn't anything wrong with dozers. His heat treat is renowned and ability to do wonders with D2 legendary. He is a premium maker and his knives will do duty. However, if I could convince Bob to make me a flat + convex I'd do that over the standard hollow. Then again, I never did handle a Dozer. One day I'm sure I will. I wouldn't turn one away that is for sure.
 
...However, if I could convince Bob to make me a flat + convex I'd do that over the standard hollow. Then again, I never did handle a Dozer. One day I'm sure I will. I wouldn't turn one away that is for sure.

Well said. I agree on all points.
 
However, if I could convince Bob to make me a flat + convex I'd do that over the standard hollow. Then again, I never did handle a Dozer. One day I'm sure I will. I wouldn't turn one away that is for sure.


Having talked at length to Dan Crotts, Bob Dozier’s step son and assist (and a great knife maker in his own right), about convex blades, I can tell you that when they do a convex blade they do start by grinding flat bevels.

Those of you that have not use a Dozier are missing out on some great knives; his handles just seem to work in the human hand, and his heat treatment offers some phenomenal edge retention.

His list of standard models continues to grow, and is second only to Bark River in variety of choices, plus Bob will often take on Custom Designs.



Photo: One of my Custom Dozier’s.




"If you're not living on the edge, …you're taking up too much space."

Big Mike



Forest & Stream
 
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Convex works for me 'cos it does a bit of everything. It incorporates three things that I prize:

1] Flow. I strongly believe that what follows the cutting edge can be as important as the edge itself. The way whatever you have cut flows across the rest of the blade is not something I can ignore. I'm hoping one day someone with the facilities will examine this with ballistic gelatin and post up some photo illustrations.

2] Traditional way to make a strong edge that I have found nothing else to better.

3] By far the easiest for me to maintain.

I'd like to add a necessary component that is the one thing I think makes a convex difficult for some people- balance. A convex edge can get out of balance, and become too obtuse. It can become too fine, as well. Neither case is hard to fix with a stone and a strop.


Excellent points- And I'll bring up that a certain amount of the popularity of angle flat grinds with V edges and hollow grinds comes from the development of machine tools- the tooling making the style popular to a certain extent instead of utility or performance being the drive. I've seen several 3-5 inch blades from the 1970s through the 1990s from small shops that are insane- 1/4 and even more on the spine with hollow grinds that are intended to use outdoors for slicing. To me, this makes no sense- yes, there is effort in the making, but if you cut anything wider than the blade (these are generally 7/8 inch to 1 1/4 inches broad) you will eventually get wedged things. Such extreme hollow grinds are an interesting way to duplicate with a grinder the T spine forging of some period combat blades, but the utility seems to drop significantly for most uses beyond cutting tape and twine.

Most scandi and convex edges are very utilitarian. (Most scandi grinds I've seen are in fact slightly convex)- you can maintain easily with any decent stone, no magic rods, guides, or whatnot are required. And a strop for honing can be made out of any flexible mild abrasive- from denim to leather to muddy flax to cardboard.

A shallow V grind final edge bevel isn't a bad thing, necessarily. I've done several on bird and trout knives for people who have pocket stones and ceramic rods they like. But nearly every knife that's come my way for a touch up - most of them not made by me- that people hand sharpen without a special guide rod system has had a convex final. Mostly unintentionally, I'm sure.

There's been plenty of talk abotu why a convex or a scandi performs well, so I'll skip that.

Kitchen knives are an interesting and very useful area to look at cutting performance. Once you get past 'pedestrian' V grinds, almost everyone is looking at compound bevels and fine convex edges. The duble or triple compound edge bevel being a 'digital' representation of the 'analog' convex edge bevel.
 
Once you get past 'pedestrian' V grinds, almost everyone is looking at compound bevels and fine convex edges. The duble or triple compound edge bevel being a 'digital' representation of the 'analog' convex edge bevel.


A very good and interesting observation Christof. :thumbup: :cool: :thumbup:




Many people who sharpen their V-bevels by hand end up convexing there edges anyway; :eek:

...it takes a lot of skill to maintain a constant angle by hand. :rolleyes:




"If you're not living on the edge, …you're taking up too much space."

Big Mike


Forest & Stream
 
Yes lots of good points. We talk a lot about bevels and main grinds but the very edge often is a blend of grinds from V to slightly convexed or having a microbevel. It seems as though some people get really fixated on being a purist - i.e. keeping the very edge to the same grind as the main bevel. However, I have yet to see any real performance benefit to that.

For example, I routinely convert my V grinds at the primary bevel to convex using the mouse pad/sandpaper method and then after convexing it, I put a micro-bevel (converting the edge back to a V) with a sharpmaker. I find I get the same performance benefit doing this as I would sharpening the convex through progressive grits followed by stropping with polishing compound. Yet adding the microbevel takes 30 s as opposed to 5-10 min by stropping.

I do the same with my scandi's. I will sharpen it as a true scandi when it is really dull, but then maintain it by adding a micro-bevel. I've tried using the knives both as true scandi and as scandi + microbevel and I can't find any performance difference at all.
 
A well sharpened edge will cut well.

But that begs the question, what type of edge will hold up best?

Taking a given steel and hardness, I think a well refined and highly polished convex edge will take more abuse without giving up any cutting performance.

At least that’s my opinion based on the testing I have done.





"If you're not living on the edge, …you're taking up too much space."

Big Mike


Forest & Stream
 
The more acute the edge the sharper.
The more obtuse the edge the tougher.

It all boils down to that.

Take a look at most convex blades; most of them are mostly flat ground except the shape is somehow rounded toward the edge to make it somehow more obtuse.
Yet a convexed thin japanese knife edge will fly away on shock while a buck night hawk can cut nails despite its V edge (and crappy steel) simply because the edge is so obtuse. No magic properties. There's that "flow" thing that somehow apply, yet since pressure distributes itself having large surface in contact with material doesn't necessarly means more drag. Sharp grind transitions might be a problem.

Take a look at the "moran" edge, it's combination of two flat grinds, yet from a distance it does look like a convex edge, can material actually see any difference either.

Than some people add a micro bevel to their scandi which is basically obtusing the edge... And you've completed the loop.

Testing blade in gelatin would be completly missing the point since cut material stiffness is an essential factor in what you can cut or not.
 
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The more acute the edge the sharper.
The more obtuse the edge the tougher.

It all boils down to that.



That is no doubt true...

...but this thread is about edge types.



My point being that a convex edge lends more support to the final edge then flat bevels.




"If you're not living on the edge, …you're taking up too much space."

Big Mike


Forest & Stream
 
Actually it is it backwards:
"It allows a support thinner than what would be the support for V grind of the same obtuseness".

Only if you are trying to corral a convex edge into some sort of measure of edge angle. :jerkit:

But if you look at where the primary bevel meets the secondary bevel or convex curvature, you will see that what I am saying holds true. :cool:



It’s that “shoulder” that really hurts cutting performance.




"If you're not living on the edge, …you're taking up too much space."

Big Mike


Forest & Stream
 
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I agree with you and Cristof on that point. And it doesn't bother me one bit. ;)

Man has been convexing his edges for thousands of years, and doing a fine job cutting things.

It’s only since the invention of machine tools that flat bevels took over, and not because of quality, but because of economy (read cheaper).




"If you're not living on the edge, …you're taking up too much space."

Big Mike


Forest & Stream
 
Many people who sharpen their V-bevels by hand end up convexing there edges anyway; :eek:

...it takes a lot of skill to maintain a constant angle by hand. :rolleyes:

Man has been convexing his edges for thousands of years, and doing a fine job cutting things.
It’s only since the invention of machine tools that flat bevels took over, and not because of quality, but because of economy (read cheaper).



That's right :thumbup: And good stuff Christof. :thumbup:.
 
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It’s only since the invention of machine tools that flat bevels took over, and not because of quality, but because of economy (read cheaper).

You are correct again. Interestingly, knives made with relatively inexpensive and simple tools are (generally) worth more than those made in multi-million-dollar factories. Maybe I'm weird, but I find this perversely amusing. :D
 
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