Follow the Sheep Horn Fighter Thread

[ptgdvc]

I thought it might be interesting to chronical the sales movement of this particular Sheephorn Fighter from its original sale by the maker, Mike Williams, MS at the 2004 Spirit of Steel Show, to its current location, and perhaps beyond. Here is a photo by Coop of the knife in question.

I would hope that anyone, who can help fill in the blanks, or give their perceptions of the knife, would do so. I hope this will provide a window into what actually happens after the knife leaves the maker's table and will be helpful to makers and collectors alike. FWIW, This is a great knife.

Our story begins with a thread posted on BladeForums about the Spirit of Steel Show in 2004, by Roger P.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=314494&highlight=2004

I first became aware of the knife from this thread and was attracted by its clean crisp lines and the excellent reputation of its maker, Mike Williams, MS. At some point, shortly after the show, I became aware that the knife was being offered by Robertson's Custom Cutlery. Here is a link to the original listing: http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/williamsfig.htm

The knife was offered for sale in September 2004, without a sheath at $1,150, which would lead me to believe that Les paid around $925 for it with a 20% discount factored in. At this particular time, Mike Williams was very hot in the market place. The knife had already been sold at $1,150, when I spoke to Les. I expressed an interest in ordering a similar piece and lost track of the knife. In retrospect, with 20/20 hindsight, Mike's price was clearly pushing the upper limits for this knife and its value was only headed south from the start.

In June of 2006, the exact same knife (horn and stag are like fingerprints) appeared on the Nordic Knives website, the condition was excellent and it was offered for sale by Dave Harvey at $595. I still loved the knife and pulled the trigger on it instantly. Obviously, someone had suffered a monetary bloodbath during the intervening two years. Dave had probably acquired the knife for about $475. The knife had not changed, but obviously the market's perception of the maker's work had deteriorated significantly. For the record, I think that Mike Williams, MS does outstanding work. The steel does not lie, but the financial track record on this and other pieces speaks for itself.

Here is the thread shortly after I acquired the knife: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=410050&highlight=williams As Mr. Lombardo so eloquently put it, "I saw the price and you suck". This however does not explain the reason for the dramatic price collapse. It was still the same knife that had sold quickly for $1,150 less than two years before and in my opinion was still a terrific knife.

In the middle of February, I needed to raise funds, for a new knife that is approaching completion I offered the knife at the $900 level to several people who had expressed interest and came up empty, and then started the following thread:http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=454968&highlight=williams I started by offering the knife at $950 and conducted a Dutch auction, (some people incorrectly perceive this as driving down prices, but my experience with it is 100% positive). My target price was actually $850, which I consider to be a fair market price for this piece. When the knife reached the $850 level I received a call from a purveyor and sold him the knife for $800. He has yet to post his asking price. The saga continues.

Here is Roger P's original photo from the 2004 SOS show:

Here is Nordic's photo from June of 2006 (not very appealing at first glance) Any questions about the value of Coop's work?

 

[Keith Montgomery]

This thread is very interesting. I would have thought that Mike's knives were still commanding higher prices than it would appear they do.

My first thoughts were that at $1150.00 without a sheath the price was too high. However, I would have thought that your original asking price of $950.00 would have been about right.

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

Maybe the knife was part of an estate sale or absolute auction? That is one way to explain the low price at Nordic. FWIW, I think Nordic obviously waaaay under priced the knife. It is a MS knife by a talented maker and knives of that quality generally start at $750 and up. Their loss was your gain. I guess the question is, is the knife a $800 dollar knife or a $1200 knife?
Clearly, the knife worth somewhere in the middle. At one time you felt the knife was worth $1150, but three years later you determined it was only worth $850. It seems you hold the key to the current value, Peter! What changed to make this knife worth $300 less to YOU in three years?

It is fascinating to see the life cycle of this knife so far. It is one of the nicer pieces of sheephorn I have seen.

 

[flava]

Very interesting, thanks for sharing this story :thumbup:
IMHO the price was way too hight at $1150. I can't imagine how it got at Nordic Knives for a price so low that it sold at $595! The price you sold it for seems right.

 

[JeremyM]

I also saw the price on this at Nordic, and thought it was low. Personally I don't care for this particular piece, and figured maybe the price was the result of the market generally not caring for it either.

So, my question is, did Nordic believe this knife was only worth $595, or were they simply shooting for a particular margin on the sale?

My other question Peter, and you don't need to answer this if you don't think it's appropriate, is if you had picked this up from Les @ $1150, would you have sold it at $800 or waited to try to squeeze more out of it?

 

[Kevin Jones]

In keeping close watch on Nordic’s website over the years and also having sold Dave pieces direct and listed through his website, I believe he marks up knives a set percentage no matter what he pays for them. As a result, quite often his knives seem quite low or quite high. Other website dealers seem to use more of a market driven price structure.

 

[Doug C]

When the knife reached the $850 level I received a call from a purveyor and sold him the knife for $800. He has yet to post his asking price. The saga continues.

Peter,
Interesting thread.
I'm just getting a handle on pricing structure,who fits where and how much.
My question is,when the knife reached $850 and the purveyor contacted you with an $800 offer,did you think the knife wouldn't sell for $850 or do collectors offer purveyors slightly better prices to develop relationships that pay off "down the road".
Apologies if this is a question most others know the answer to,I don't and thought I might ask.
I like it and think it is a fine fighter. :thumbup:

Doug

 

[SharpByCoop]

The sheephorn handle is a wildcard taste. Some will like it and others will abhor it. That said, it makes this particular knife a bit of an anomaly. This factors into the already-complicated equation.

Coop

 

[Jose Reyes]

Interesting thread, Pete. it makes me think I should stop being lazy and read the long "investment" thread Steven has recommended. Being a sheephorn afficionado the horn looks real good to me. It doesn't have as much surface texture as I like but the color and opaqueness<?> are very attractive. As an investor I think you did well buying low/selling high.

The blade shape and guard composition are the detractors for me though, in what looks like a well built piece. IMHO, the main factor in the pricing using Steven's Piece/Maker/Price equation. I'm not sure if Randy sold it yet but the piece that surprised me is the Clouds Bowie he was selling, even though he had a cheapo "raining" all over his thread.

I think the new owner will be able to sell this one for a profit but it might take some time until a collector that it tickles just right comes along. For a dealer making a business out of it though that should not be as much of a problem as someone looking for a quick sale to fund another project.

If Les doesn't mind elaborating I wonder if he initially bought the piece with a discount to sell at what the maker was asking or if it was priced with a standard percentage or if he priced it based on market value? If Nordic just adds a standard increase I can see it being an advantage for a quick sale but it makes me think that he could have sold the knife for $800 as well. On the other hand passing the savings on to the customer seems like a good business practice to me. I have bought from him before BTW and have been pleased with the service.

 

[ptgdvc]

Peter,
My question is,when the knife reached $850 and the purveyor contacted you with an $800 offer,did you think the knife wouldn't sell for $850 or do collectors offer purveyors slightly better prices to develop relationships that pay off "down the road".

Doug

I think at that point I was about to go to the $825 level anyway. The fact that I knew that the funds would be available promptly for my new purchase was worth $25 to me. As far as the relationship "down the road" I think that purveyors view each transaction separately. I sincerely doubt that my acceptance of his $800 offer accomplished anything for the future. It was probably detrimental because his slightly lowball offer worked, and he would be encouraged to do it again in a future situation.

P

 

[Don Hanson III]

This is very interesting. Maybe Les priced it too high to start with

Nerver sold to Dave but I have seen a couple of my knives priced too low on Nordic's site and a couple too high. I let Dave know what my price was on one that I thought was way out of line and he changed the price. They all sold pretty quick.

 

[Jose Reyes]

It was probably detrimental because his slightly lowball offer worked, and he would be encouraged to do it again in a future situation.

P

I don't know about that, Peter. How long would he have had to wait before you got down to $800 anyway?

 

[ptgdvc]

The sheephorn handle is a wildcard taste. Some will like it and others will abhor it. That said, it makes this particular knife a bit of an anomaly. This factors into the already-complicated equation.

Coop

Coop,

I think you are exactly correct. Sheep horn can be problematic. If you look at the Deal Breaker thread, certain handle materials can clearly hurt or help knife's value. I personally do not care for sheep horn, but the other factors outweighted it.

P

 

[ptgdvc]

I don't know about that, Peter. How long would he have had to wait before you got down to $800 anyway?

We will never know. There was quite a bit of interest at the $850 level, $825 might well have been the magic number. In any event, he had no guarantee that he would be the first person to pull the trigger if the knife reached $800. Clearly he wanted to shortstop the process and lock in the knife at his price.

The Dutch process actually puts a fair amount of pressure on potential buyers. The seller only needs one buyer and if the price is within reason, an extra $25 or so is absolutely worth it to the person who really wants the knife. Also I was at complete liberty to withdraw the knife from sale at anytime. I do like the knife very much, continuing to own it, would not have been a hardship at all.

 

[ptgdvc]

My other question Peter, and you don't need to answer this if you don't think it's appropriate, is if you had picked this up from Les @ $1150, would you have sold it at $800 or waited to try to squeeze more out of it?

Mr. Robertson would have had a happy customer availing himself of Les's superior trade in policy. You would have to ask Les what he would have done at that point. Perhaps his sinister twin WWG will appear and answer this question for us.

 

[Jose Reyes]

We will never know. There was quite a bit of interest at the $850 level, $825 might well have been the magic number. In any event, he had no guarantee that he would be the first person to pull the trigger if the knife reached $800. Clearly he wanted to shortstop the process and lock in the knife at his price.

The Dutch process actually puts a fair amount of pressure on potential buyers. The seller only needs one buyer and if the price is within reason, an extra $25 or so is absolutely worth it to the person who really wants the knife. Also I was at complete liberty to withdraw the knife from sale at anytime. I do like the knife very much, continuing to own it, would not have been a hardship at all.

Good point, you're right...

 

[JeremyM]

Mr. Robertson would have had a happy customer availing himself of Les's superior trade in policy. You would have to ask Les what he would have done at that point. Perhaps his sinister twin WWG will appear and answer this question for us.

Ah, good point. Let me re-phrase then, if you'd paid $1150 from a private collector would you have taken $800 for it now or held out for more? Just trying to understand how taking a loss on a piece vs making a profit affects pricing in sales vs perceived market value of a piece.

I know that when I sell something (not just knives), if I'm taking a loss I get a little more concerned about narrowing the loss as opposed to increasing margin on a profitable sale. I'm pretty sure this is exactly the wrong way to approach things, but am curious about what other people think.

 

[ptgdvc]

Ah, good point. Let me re-phrase then, if you'd paid $1150 from a private collector would you have taken $800 for it now or held out for more? Just trying to understand how taking a loss on a piece vs making a profit affects pricing in sales vs perceived market value of a piece.

This is a serious question about human nature, different people will answer it differently, others will give different answers on different days. In my case, on that day, I think it was a bit easier to give away some potential extra profit, than it would have been to absorb a slightly larger loss. That is about as close to an answer as I can get for your question.

P

 

[RogerP]

This is very interesting. Maybe Les priced it too high to start with

Nerver sold to Dave but I have seen a couple of my knives priced too low on Nordic's site and a couple too high. I let Dave know what my price was on one that I thought was way out of line and he changed the price. They all sold pretty quick.

For anyone who cares to notice, here we have a maker who understands the importance of the secondary market.

But I digress.

First of all, let me say that I had the opportinity to handle that knife at SOS and thought it a terrific fighter. Quick in the hand as a fighter should be, excellent fit and finish and a particularly nice hamon. Along with Harvey Dean's (first, I believe) "El Diablo" fighter, it was easily one of the nicest fighters at the show. I didn't consider Mike's asking price "too high" but for the absence of a sheath, but it was certainly not "value priced". Fairly described I think as about the upper limit of what it could reasonably hope to command at that time.

The missing part of the puzzle here obviously is what happened on the journey from Les to Nordic. Folks, that selling price at Nordic was insanely low. I remember when it popped up and immediately thought one of two things: a) that has got to be a typo or b) there has got to be something pretty wrong with the knife cosmetically. I sent an e-mail seeking clarification of same, but by time I got a reply the knife was gone, zapped by Quick-draw Gill.

The rest of the story is fairly unremarkable. The price Peter received from RCK is not uncommon for a piece purchased by a dealer. I would be surprised in Mike's asking price is any less than Les'. And pause here to consider the value of something like Les' return / trade-in policy. That is a pretty warm security blanket for the original purchaser.

There is a moral to the story in terms of pricing structure that Les has discussed more than once in the context of "value pricing".

Roger

 

[ptgdvc]

And pause here to consider the value of something like Les' return / trade-in policy.

Roger

Of course this is the missing part of the puzzle, Why didn't the original buyer from Les trade back the knife for something else? My suspicion is that it changed hands at least twice before it arrived at Nordic and the second owner was simply unaware of that possibility.

P