Follow the Sheep Horn Fighter Thread

This thread PROVES that the market is fluid and dynamic and ever-changing.
Mike Williams has a tremendous future as a potential star in the ABS, but that will require full-time knifemaking, more innovation,more knives, shows and promotion to go along with the prices.

There are almost 100 Mastersmiths in the naked city. It is a tough market to distinguish yourself unless you pull out all the stops.
 
There are a heckuva lot of good threads happening in the past week. Here's one.

Two points:

I can't understand how a sheath for a bowie can be only an additional $50 in value. Sheathmakers have to be the most underpaid workers in the industry. Even a plain one has to take 2-3 hours.

Someone alluded to the second (or first?) owner not knowing about the notable RCC trade-in policy. I would imagine secondary owners make that trade-in null and void. WWG, what would you say he'd do?

Coop
 
Coop,

Here is exactly what the RCC policy is:

"TRADE-INS: We will apply the full purchase price of most knives (excluding Emerson Knives) purchased from Robertson's Custom Cutlery, towards the purchase of a more expensive (at least $150 more) knife. The knife should be in mint condition. This policy exists to allow our clients to continue to improve their collection with minimal expense."

I think it may be a tad unrealistic to expect this, unless you originally bought the knife from Les, but then again it is certainly a bit vague on this point. I suspect that the term "OUR CLIENTS" would reasonably exclude second and third hand purchasers.
 
Anthony Lombardo said:
Thats thats all Kenny charges for a sheath (albeit a simple one)
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Which is why I can't understand why more makers who don't like to make sheaths don't source them there. A $50 Rowe sheath is not fancy, but it IS top quality.

Roger

PS - My understanding is that Les' trade-in policy applies to the original purchaser only. If I am wrong, I am sure I will be se straight.
 
Hi Coop,

Unfortunately I am not in a position to help those who sadly buy their custom knives from someone else. :D

Oddly enough in the last 18 months I have had a huge rise in collectors trying to trade in their knives to me utilizing my trade in policy. Usually the first hint is that I don't carry that makers knife.

As a dealer I am always open to trades if it is something we can agree on. In fact I have taken knives back in trade from a third party. The knives are in mint condition and I still work with the makers.

The truth is I get very few knives I sell back in trade. The main reason is my pricing. When you sell almost every knife for the makers price and you work with the makers I do. Generally when it comes time to move the knife, my clients find they can get a better deal by selling the knife in the after market then they will trading it back in. They then pocket the extra cash and then they buy the knife they want.

With regards to sheaths usually the reason a knife will not come with one due to timing issues. In that the maker waits until the very last minute to try and get a sheath. A trend that was starting to appear was knives being brought to shows without sheaths. A very well known MS at the Little Rock show took all but one knives home (the buyer was able to get a sheath from Kenny at the show) due to lack of sheaths.

From the dealer perspective I would have to buy the knife, then leave it with Kenny from 2-4 weeks then pay for the sheath and additional shipping. Kenny goes so far as to let makers know that all they have to do is fax them a copy of the blade and they can build a sheath to it. Now that is service.

For the makers reading this, you don't need a sheath, but you increase your chances of taking the knife home from a show. At a minimum expect to lower the price of your knife by at least $50 for not having a sheath.

Exceptions...Bowies that cost over $1,500 and Damascus Bowies. These knives should have a nice padded zipper case with them.

WWG
 
WoodWorkGhost said:
Exceptions...Bowies that cost over $1,500 and Damascus Bowies. These knives should have a nice padded zipper case with them.

WWG
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I'll disagree with you there. These knives should come with a fancy Rowe sheath to compliment the knife. Even though they will (most likely) never be carried, it makes for a more attractive package. A Burt Foster or Ed Caffrey damascus bowie is sweet all by itself, but extra-sweet-with-sugar-on-top with one of their excellent sheaths to accompany it. Not everybody can make a sheath as well as Burt or Ed, but anybody can call Kenny. (Just wish he would join the computer generation.)

Roger
 
WoodWorkGhost said:
They then pocket the extra cash and then they buy the knife they want.
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Read: They buy what they like. :thumbup: ;)
Exceptions...Bowies that cost over $1,500 and Damascus Bowies. These knives should have a nice padded zipper case with them.
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Serious: You feel that knives of this caliber (display and not using knives) don't even (shouldn't) need a sheath? I don't think so. A Bowie is a mythical cutting tool anyway, so why not? As I read this I thought you were going to point out that these knives DESERVE an upper-quality sheath in the same league as the knife. So, I disagree.

That said, I am guilty of owning such (Broadwell/Cover subhilt), but I think price was my consideration. I'd do it differently now.

Coop

EDIT: Posted at the same time as Roger.
 
Joss said:
I don't know how makers manage their pricing. It's hard to find the right amount by which to increase once prices. I have seen 2 of my favorite makers increase their prices very materially in a short time (Fogg & Cashen), and one does notice this.

I think that a maker should aim for something like that:
1 - Don't increase your prices too fast;
2 - Set your prices so that the 1st buyer can hope to realize a 15% profit on the aftermarket (at the moment of sale).

It's hard to be a maker. Many I suspect don't make that much money to start with, and the market is distorted on one side by part time makers who don't need to make a living, and on the other side by crazy bubbles (Strider custom anyone?). It's very hard to stay level headed and to analyze the information properly.

By the way, dealers also have weird ideas of pricing. I recently saw an OK-ish plain steel bowie by Robb Hudson (a maker who does great work but has virtually fallen off the face of the earth), priced over $2K!!! I have 2 of his damascus bowies and I've never paid more than $1.5K for them (and I'm not sure I would be able to recoup that now).
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1. Good points, Joss.

2. The Fogg and Cashen examples are off, a bit. Don did virtually no shows, Kevin very few. They were making OK money(hourly wages?:D ) during the time they set the prices, but a bunch of things changed, including costs of raw materials, and shipping. Kevin simply was not making enough money, not sure about Don. They looked around, saw the lay of the land, and decided to up the prices. Kevin is backed up for 4 years, people are still buying his stuff. Maybe neither you or I WANT to pay $3,000 for a Fogg bowie now, but they are certainly worth it, and we both COULD if that right piece came along. We would both have to sell some things so we could have our "other" nice stuff.

3. SOME dealers have wierd pricing ideas, SOME times. Nordic would be a great example. Got a Cashen MS 3 bar composite 11 3/4" damascus bowie from Nordic for $975.00, and have found some other great deals there as well. Have also seen some horribly high prices-specifically, stands out in my mind $3,000 for a Scagel barbecue fork, and high hundreds for average John Nelson Cooper work, which is just not moving that well these days.

4. The sheephorn knife was priced to high at over $1,000, we all agree on that. The person that sold it to Nordic might not have CARED about the "value" of the knife, or maybe they were ganging up a bunch of stuff to get a Walker or Loveless, who knows?

Peter got a smokin' good deal on it, but can we please be honest? It is not a very attractive knife. It is sort of blobby and amorphous, especially for an MS grade knife. Mike may be a splendid fellow, but this is not a splendid knife. It is average, rather ho hum, and there are many JS makers(Knight, Hanson, Diskin, Wheeler....) that are making cleaner, crisper and more desireable knives at this point. THEN throw in the sheephorn, and lack of sheath(a fixed blade knife without a sheath is a letter opener, got it WWG?)

Teetering on the brink of buy/no buy is sitting right in front of you-this is a great example of what differentiates going home with a table full/suitcase full of knives-not much.:eek:

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Hi Coop,

Read: They buy what they like.
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You missed the point. The knives I sell don't get traded in because they go up in value. So why trade a knife to me that you paid $400 for when you can sell it on the open market for $475.

You are not the only one who misses the point, most do. Not for lack of intelligence, but for lack of experience.

My Full Time Job for the last 12 years and 9 years part time before that, is talking with collectors. Every day, some times all day. My views have been shaped by dealing with custom knife collectors for 21 years. Coop I understand you are fully in the "Buy what I like" Camp.

As I have written before, no one has ever called you a F*****G A*****E because you told them what their knife was really worth. People don't accuse you of being (fill in every derogatory term you can think of, oh and feel free to use MOTHER) because they think you are trying to "work" them on the price.

My business model, which no one else in custom knives uses (which I why I use the term Custom Knife Entrepreneur) my business model. My model is based on thousands of hours of talking with custom knife buyers and makers.

This is why I go out of my way to let people know I don't carry:

Factory Knives: Reeve, Randall's and William Henry included.

Kinves with Jigged bone: Except on copies of period pieces.

Any knife with Giraffe Bone

Any knife with Mokume

Any knife with Brass

I go out of my way to let this be known to eliminate confrontations, both online and at shows. It also cuts down on being called derogatory terms, having my ass from being kicked and has cut the death threats down to almost zero.

It is the same with sheaths, while you and Roger may like them. Most collectors when it comes to $1,500 knives would rather have the padded case. I have heard a hundred time if I have heard it once about a collectors "Bucket of Sheaths". Why do they have the bucket O' sheaths? Because of tanic acid! How many times have you sold an expensive knife with a very nice sheath and been asked, how much is it without the sheath? I used to sell very expensive knives with custom fitted presentations boxes. You know why I don't do that any more? You guessed it..."How much is it without the box"?


I have seen both carbon and Damascus blades that were stored in their sheaths. You see it was my fault for not telling them not to store the knife in the sheath. I should have told them not to do it. I should have provided the oil or Renaissance Wax for the knife (at no cost to the buyer). It was up to me to make it right.

Yes, I have recommend to some customers they find other places to buy their custom knives. Fortunately these buyers are few and far between. However, you expect the best and plan for the worst.

All hunters should have sheaths, as it is a knife that could be carried. Lets face it, how many places are you going to carry a knife with a 10" blade...other than a knife show or into the woods. As well the sheath only protects the blade. What about the guard and handle? This is why you are better off with a nice padded case for very expensive knives.

All of this is based on my experience. I understand that others disagree and they are welcome to their opinions.

WWG
 
Hi STeven,

Most letter openers don't have sharp edges and as such do not require sheaths.

See my other post about those who store their knives in their sheaths.

I agree that fixed blades should have a sheath, up to a point. My main problem is with the $150 sheaths (and up).

I also understand that the Silver Tip and Throat Sheaths are going to cost extra and are expected to bring give the knife the "authentic" look.

WWG
 
WWG,

Whether a knife costs $500 or $1,500, it's best not to store it in its sheath. So that doesn't explain why the pricier knife should not have a sheath and the less expensive one should.

Now, you have sold more $1500 bowies than I ever will, so I will not gainsay your experience in general customer preference in this market. For the life of me though, I can't imagine someone asking Burt "how much without the sheath?" Absence of a sheath on a pricey bowie is not a deal-breaker for me, but the presence of one sure can be a deal-maker.

Roger
 
WoodWorkGhost said:
Hi STeven,

Most letter openers don't have sharp edges and as such do not require sheaths.

See my other post about those who store their knives in their sheaths.

I agree that fixed blades should have a sheath, up to a point. My main problem is with the $150 sheaths (and up).

I also understand that the Silver Tip and Throat Sheaths are going to cost extra and are expected to bring give the knife the "authentic" look.

WWG
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1. My letter openers have sharp edges(Moeller Viper III, Zero Tolerance ZT100, and Matt Diskin Louisiana fighter in damascus with nickel/fine silver MOKUME SHEATH, lined with felt, stored in the sheath)

2. Obviously the knife should not be stored in the sheath, even when the sheath is made from vegetable tanned leather from Muir and McDonald. Too much possibility for trouble. No, there is a reason that Bill Mittleman puts elastic straps on his cases-for the sheaths. If nothing else, a sheath gives me something to stick the knife in if the maker does not have a case, and protects the edge/point, I protect the handle with my socks, when traveling with a knife.

3. May not require a sheath from the maker, but will have Mr. Rowe make one if it is not provided, simply will not own a fixed blade without a sheath. Mine average around $65.00, and it factors into what I am willing to pay for the knife.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Personally, I only care about the sheath if it is a significant part of the package (i.e., D. Winkler sheath, or a full NiSi or mokume, a la Matt Diskin). Otherwise, I'd rather not pay for it since the sheath will end up in my cardboard box (which I use in lieu of a bucket).
 
Kohai999 said:
2. The Fogg and Cashen examples are off, a bit.
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All I said is that I took notice. The fact is, their prices went up, and pretty fast. I bought a leaf blade dagger from Don at his full new price, and I was happy to pay the price.
 
sunfishman said:
Roger, I was Joking about Les pricing it too high, I'm sure it was in line with Mike's price.

And you're right, I keep a close eye on how my knives do in the secondary market. It's a very important part of this business.
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Very true Don, however It's amazing how many makers don't considering it influnces the price they get.
 
RogerP said:
WWG,

Whether a knife costs $500 or $1,500, it's best not to store it in its sheath. So that doesn't explain why the pricier knife should not have a sheath and the less expensive one should.

Now, you have sold more $1500 bowies than I ever will, so I will not gainsay your experience in general customer preference in this market. For the life of me though, I can't imagine someone asking Burt "how much without the sheath?" Absence of a sheath on a pricey bowie is not a deal-breaker for me, but the presence of one sure can be a deal-maker.

Roger
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I rather pay the fair price for the knife get a padded case and have the sheath made to my taste except for knives by the knifemakers who are also excellent sheathmakers as Tim Hancock and those named in last week's related thread.
 
Hi Roger,

Generally if the knife comes with a sheath the buyer would not ask the "maker" how much without a sheath. I am not the maker.

Yes, a knife should never be stored in a sheath, but yet they find their way in there.

I don't mind a basic sheath on an expensive knife. That way it isn't that much when it gets tossed in the pile.

STeve,

I don't have sharp edges on my letter openers as I am afraid of sharp objects.

Guys, all the stories I tell you have actually happened. The knives I have in my collection are, like most of you, knives that I like or have some special meaning to me.

One knife in my collection is the first Bowie George Herron ever made (circa 1966). He ground it on an old fashioned grinding wheel that he pumped with his foot! Consider when and how it was made, it is a very nice knife and in mint condition. Bob and I went to George's house last fall. I have a nice picture of all three of us with the knife and another one with George attempting to slit Bob's throat with the knife.

WWG
Missing his friend George.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
I think that properly judging what their knives should sell for is a big problem for a great many makers.
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Keith, I agree. I'm curious what makers have calculated thier costs besides materials. As with any other business, to some extent, why not apply some business basics: cost of materials+overhead+equipment costs+hourly wage+profit=price

As far a pricing goes, it appears as if some makers ride the coattails of another maker that has earned his place in the market.

Bob
 
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