Follow the Sheep Horn Fighter Thread

The knife will probably be listed by it's new owner for somewhere between $950.00 and $1,000.00. This seems like a fair price to me. As has been noted, the sheephorn handle will limit its appeal, but I think the knife has enough going for it to be saleable at that kind of price.

So what are the reasons that this knife has lost value? Is it that the knife was originally overpriced? Has the knifemaker started to drop in popularity? Is the fact that it has a sheephorn handle a contributing factor? Does the fact that it didn't come with a sheath have any impact whatsoever?

To me the knife was originally priced too high by a couple of hundred dollars. Sheephorn would have had a detrimental effect on my wanting to own this knife, even though it looks good. A knife not coming with a sheath makes a difference to me. I calculate about $50.00 for a well made, basic sheath for a bowie. If I have to have one made by someone else, it will always cost more than that, but from the maker I figure that is probably fairly accurate. I have not followed the pricing on Mike Williams knives, so I can't offer any thoughts on whether he has dropped in popularity.
 
Roger, I was Joking about Les pricing it too high, I'm sure it was in line with Mike's price.

And you're right, I keep a close eye on how my knives do in the secondary market. It's a very important part of this business.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
So what are the reasons that this knife has lost value? Is it that the knife was originally overpriced? Has the knifemaker started to drop in popularity? Is the fact that it has a sheephorn handle a contributing factor? Does the fact that it didn't come with a sheath have any impact whatsoever?

I have not followed the pricing on Mike Williams knives, so I can't offer any thoughts on whether he has dropped in popularity.
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I think the maker was hot at the time and was aggressively pushing his prices up (hey it is a free country) But it ultimately harmed him in the market place. Les Robertson got caught up in the excitement and jumped on it because the maker was hot. I would be curious to know at what point in the show Les acquired the knife. He obviously sold the knife quickly to a keen buyer. The sheep horn is a negative to me. I am not a sheath guy, but many are, so a $50 reduction for the lack of a sheath would be in order.

I think there are other instances of declining prices, but I will allow those directly involved to speak, if they so choose.

P
 
Hi Sunfish and Jose,

The knife in question was sold for the maker's price.

The knife from Mike was $1,150 without a sheath. I waited until Saturday and bought the knife (I had a great Blade Show and needed Inventory). This was an instance (as I alluded to on another thread where the collector got the better of me and I violated my own purchase policies.) The knife was and still is an excellent knife.

When I first introduced to Mike by Jerry Fisk, I thought his work was excellent and value priced. Mike had a few good years and his pricing changed from being value priced to being slightly overpriced.

Obviously the price that Nordic was selling the knife for was a killer deal. I would have bought it for that. However, I view Nordic in a different light. Dave is very knowledgeable, however, he is just a knife dealer. He sells factory and custom knives. He is doing a great job running his business. Back in the 80's he and Paul Basch were "da man".

My job as a custom knife entrepreneur is to help the custom knife market, period. I cannot take a knife from Mike, even if I bought it at $575 and put it on the site for $800. As a dealer I was selling more of Mike's work than any other dealer. Consequently, my pricing would have an affect on Mike's position in the market place. As well it could have a ripple effect on the other MS makers I work with...could have.

When I get consigned knives I try to get the makers price (which gets my client and myself more money). In addition to extra money by using maker pricing the consigned price doesn't skew the rest of that makers knives on my site.

Last year I had 5 of Mike's knives on consignment, two of them sold for Mike's price. One was returned and is now for sale elsewhere at a much reduced price. Of the other 2, 1 is being offered below retail and the other is being offered at retail.

I have had several of Mike's hunters on order for over 18 months. Those hunters at $475 would sell within a week of receiving them. So collectors don't seem to have a problem with Mike's hunter pricing. The problem seems to be at the Bowie level.

I don't think Mike is done. His body of work in the last 18 months has been minimal. Consequently, he can regroup, value price his knives again and get back in the game.

This is an excellent thread with lots of great information for both makers and collectors. I do agree with Peter that whoever sold or consigned to Nordic needed money in the worst way.

WWG
Evil Twin Ops Inc.
 
Hi Keith,

Mike's knives dropped in popularity because he abandoned his value pricing. When I saw the sheep Horn fighter the price in my head was $850 - $900. When he told me the knife was $1,150 I was taken by surprise. I waited till Saturday afternoon at the Blade Show to buy it. As I stated in another post, I violated my own buying policies.

As Peter pointed out the knife did sell within a couple of weeks. I think if Mike had priced the knife at $900 in 2004, his price for that knife would now be at $1,100 (with sheath) and would be considered a good deal. In my opinion he jumped his prices to quick.

WWG
 
I was looking at this knife when it was offered for sale in the exchange and I thought that when it got to $850 it was at good price for a knife of its size and quality. $800 or $825 would be even better since it didn't have a sheath. I also noticed what appeared to be a similiar knife (soon to be soon available) on the purveyor's sight... didn't realize that it was the same! I find it quite "eye opening" what you paid for it for from Nordic; being not very experienced... I thought you might actually be taking a small loss on your sale to convert steel to cash for your new incoming knives.
 
krug82 said:
I thought you might actually be taking a small loss on your sale to convert steel to cash for your new incoming knives.
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Be assured that that does happen from time to time :mad: ! As you well know ;) !

If it didn't...I would be WWG! :eek:
 
Good thread, thanks for sharing.

I think this knife was a good deal (not a killer deal) at $850. If my collection wasn't already saturated, I would have bought it. I now see that the blade isn't quite as long as I first thought, and I now think the visual balance is a tad off, but it's still a good deal at $850. At Nordic's prices it was a killer.

Any peruser of eBay knows that sometimes a knife gets sold for stupid prices (wich is the opposite to being sold for stupid money ;) ). I made 3 such purchases in the last 3 - 5 weeks. I suspect those are from people who want to get rid of the piece and either don't really need the money or need some money urgently.

I don't know how makers manage their pricing. It's hard to find the right amount by which to increase once prices. I have seen 2 of my favorite makers increase their prices very materially in a short time (Fogg & Cashen), and one does notice this.

I think that a maker should aim for something like that:
1 - Don't increase your prices too fast;
2 - Set your prices so that the 1st buyer can hope to realize a 15% profit on the aftermarket (at the moment of sale).

If I were a maker, I would have a small number of "basic" knives I would make year after year, including 2-slab hunters, simple full tang hunters with guards, and classic full tang ABS-style bowies, all in basic woods (say maple). I would then price those and keep track of those prices over time. I would want more elaborated pieces to stay in a given relationship with those "standard" pieces.

It's hard to be a maker. Many I suspect don't make that much money to start with, and the market is distorted on one side by part time makers who don't need to make a living, and on the other side by crazy bubbles (Strider custom anyone?). It's very hard to stay level headed and to analyze the information properly.

By the way, dealers also have weird ideas of pricing. I recently saw an OK-ish plain steel bowie by Robb Hudson (a maker who does great work but has virtually fallen off the face of the earth), priced over $2K!!! I have 2 of his damascus bowies and I've never paid more than $1.5K for them (and I'm not sure I would be able to recoup that now).
 
Hi Joss,

You are under the false impression that just because someone is a dealer that they understand the custom knife market.

Dealers who have been at it for 10 years or less, just like a maker, are still figuring out what they are doing. It took me about 13 years to really get an understanding of what the market is doing.

This is why you see the majority of dealers (especially internet dealers) are all primarily chasing the same 25 or so makers. They know names and not knives. Reference your example of the Rob Hudson.

BTW, I agree with your assessment of Rob. Although I saw Bob Neal sell a Damascus Persian Fighter by Rob at the Little Rock show. No the price on the knife was not the sale price.

WWG
 
Joss,

I think your post is exactly on target and that you are firing for effect. :thumbup:

Also don't imagine that your excellent purchase of that Newton stag hunter on ebay went unnoticed.

P
 
Joss said:
I don't know how makers manage their pricing. It's hard to find the right amount by which to increase once prices. I have seen 2 of my favorite makers increase their prices very materially in a short time (Fogg & Cashen), and one does notice this.
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Joss,

Good post. I do beleive however that your two examples are guys who sell their work for notoriously low prices for the quality they deliver. If 15% profit is all you'd make on the Foggs I've seen you post I'd be surprised. When I finally do beat you to the trigger for a piece that really captivates me (Lord, please let it be a nice dha chi or celtic sword), I hope I can afford to send a few extra bucks just as a sign of appreciation...:D
 
Jose Reyes said:
Joss,

Good post. I do beleive however that your two examples are guys who sell their work for notoriously low prices for the quality they deliver. If 15% profit is all you'd make on the Foggs I've seen you post I'd be surprised. When I finally do beat you to the trigger for a piece that really captivates me (Lord, please let it be a nice dha chi or celtic sword), I hope I can afford to send a few extra bucks just as a sign of appreciation...:D
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You'll find that their prices have gone up significantly (to some extent rightly so). The latest Fogg piece I saw for sale was a $3k wood handled bowie. I can't afford that.
 
I don't have anything worthwhile to add to this thread but it's one of the better threads I've read in a while here. Nice posts everybody. FWIW, I almost bought the Williams at $850. I think that's a fair price, despite the sheephorn. I tend to like sheephorn on the right piece. There was a Sfreddo integral gaucho type knife that recently sold on Knife Art that had a nice looking sheephorn grip.
 
Entertaining thread. I also have tracked one knife I finally bought, through 3 owners. The stories are interesting..
David
 
Excellent thread... Now let's see what Mike does with it... ;)

Also, the thread is interesting as a historical trail... For instance, a Primos piece I just picked up was one I had looked at a few years ago, and then forgot since I couldn't afford it at the time and it disappeared before I knew it.

Well, it popped back up again recently, probably for more than what it went for back then (but since I didn't save the info, I can't be sure!) I promptly shut down my computer and walked away! :eek:
Came back the next day and it was still here... Shut it down again.. :(
Only to see it still there for the third day, upon which I realized I HAD TO HAVE IT!!! :D

And I wouldn't mind knowing where it's been all these years...

And the pricing; well, I guess it's up to the buyer to know if the price is too high, just right.. or too low!!! :cool: And not being very financially minded, I'll leave all the rest up to y'all! :D
 
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