Follow the Sheep Horn Fighter Thread

FWIW I have purchased more than a few knives from dealers over the years. I can't even guess at how many. When I started out, 90% of my knives came from dealers simply because I had to have it now. A lot of times I was buying knives from makers whose work I had never seen in person - always the riskiest type of purchase.

Care to guess how many knives I have returned to dealers over the years?


One.


That's how many.


And on that one the dealer did me a favor - I didn't examine the specs close enough to see that the 10 1/2" bladed bowie had a little over 4" handle, which was going to be too small for my hand.


Bottom line - a trade-in policy like Les' is a nice insurance policy for the buyer. Exceptionally nice,actually. But a return policy that so many are getting all worked up into a good frothy lather about really doesn't matter much to me.

And yes, I have both bought knives from and sold knives to Mike. And Les, for that matter - just in case my credentials need to be checked.

That said, I haven't the first frickin' idea what all this microscopic examination of Mike's return policy has to do with the original topic of this trhead - follow the path of the Williams bowie from dealer to collector to dealer to collector to dealer. Sure doesn't seem lke anyone took a backwards step on that path.

Roger
 
Peter,

So its not enough to have the best trade in/return policy in custom knives. Now I have to compete with a Multi-National Conglomerate! :D

WWG
Looking hard at the Fortune 500 list!
 
This is not legal advice. Each of you is in a differnent jurisdiction. This is a general comment on the Uniform Commercial Code on which many state commerical codes are based. This is not legal advice. By reading further, you agree that this is not legal advice and that you are not relying upon the contents of this post in any way other than for amusment. ;)

When dealing with the sale of "goods" each state's commerical code applies. Almost all commercial code sections governing "acceptance" of goods tendered includes a reasonable time upon receipt to inspect the item to ensure that it is conforming to the contract description (written and sometimes oral), express warranties (i.e. "I'll use stableized Koa" or "This will be good for chopping"), implied warranties like the blade blades on new knives are not cracked, scratched, or have someone else's initials on them. The length of time you have to inspect it before you will be deemed to have "accepted" the seller's tender is a standard of objective reasonableness. With a knife, there aren't too many diagnostic tests you need to run. Look at it and hold it. If it meets the generally accpetable requirements of a good of that kind and they did not tell you they'd deliver something else, you bought it. If the defect is that the blade cracks or chips terriblly after a week of use, then that defect would be latent, that it is to say, something that you could not discern upon the exercise of reasonably diligent inspection upon receipt. So for that, you'd get a bit more time.

But that's about it. If you decide it's too heavy for your taste, you'll have to rely upon the kindness of strangers to return it. As long as they did not say it was lighter than it actaully is, they probably have no legal obligation to take it back. But, that there is not legal obligation is not to say that a 5 to 10 day "no questions asked" (so long as the knife is in the same condition as when delivered) return policy is not a good idea for purposes of custom service.

But, like I said, this is not legal advice.
 
Hi Roger,

The reason for the microscopic inspection goes back to the betterment of the custom knife world.

As I have stated before, I am a dealer....as such I get lumped in with other dealers good, bad or indifferent.

If someone gets upset with a dealer because of a somewhat dubious return policy. They don't say to their friends XYZ dealer did them wrong. They say things like "You can't trust dealers". Yes I feel this can have a negative impact on my business. Which is not a side line or a hobby for me it is my profession. As such I will go out of my way to disassociate myself from other dealers I feel who do not treat "our" customers fairly.

Roger, whether you realize it or not, every time we lose a collectors who buys $500 + knives, the entire market suffers. It is one less collector buying one less knife or in most cases several fewer knives. This is one less person you can buy from or trade with or sell to.

I realize that most dealers don't offer the policy I do. That is the way it is done in the capitalistic world. You bought something you didn't do your homework on and now you want me to take it back....tough...grow up you're an adult now. I don't remember holding a gun to your head when you bought the knife.

The collectors, as they should have the "Coop Kumbaya" attitude. It is a hobby. Lets all get together and celebrate knives, whatever they may be. However you want your collection to go. Is it a collection? Yes, it is a collection because you determine what you collection is.

You sell knives, some for a profit some at a loss. In the big scheme of things it is not overly important for you or most collectors for that matter.

I have been in your shoes. I submit to you that if you were in my shoes for a year your take on the custom knife market would be would have a different slant.

WWG
 
The Savage Rabbit said:
This is not legal advice. Each of you is in a differnent jurisdiction. This is a general comment on the Uniform Commercial Code on which many state commerical codes are based. This is not legal advice. By reading further, you agree that this is not legal advice and that you are not relying upon the contents of this post in any way other than for amusment. ;)

When dealing with the sale of "goods" each state's commerical code applies.
Click to expand...

And a good thing too, because we are discussing INTERSTATE commerce NOT INTRASTATE commerce.

Have fun: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uniform/ucc.html FWIW, MA has adopted the UCC related to sales in its entirety.

P

I am not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once.
 
Not sure what your point is. Congress isn't invoking the Commerce Clause of the US Constition for your knife sale. You're still subject to state commercial codes. Are you citing a page to support the existance of the commercial codes which I mention? A sale to a buyer in another state is still governed by a state commerical code. The issue then becomes, which one? The answer is usually specified in the contract or resolved by resort to the law on "conflict of laws."

You might want to stay another night at that Holiday Inn. :jerkit:
 
Is that legal advice? ;)

Seriously, as long as you pay with a credit card that has return protection. It is not an issue.
 
WoodWorkGhost said:
I have been in your shoes. I submit to you that if you were in my shoes for a year your take on the custom knife market would be would have a different slant.

WWG
Click to expand...

That is beyond meaningful debate - we all have differing contributions to make based on out differing backgrounds, experiences and interests.

But I didn't see this thread as one embracing all topics which might be of interest to the custom knife community. That is the purpose of this forum, not this thread. And I do find something less than fair in the way Mike has been treated in this thread - with both subtle and overt asperisions cast upon his integrity, ethics and acumen. I have commented as such where I felt it appropriate.

In my dealings in the custom knife field I have had occasion to see much good, some bad and a little ugly. There are dealers whose prices I have not liked on given pieces, whose communication practices have not been the best, whose policies are not the most accomodating. Makers too, for that matter. But while I have often engaged in general disscussions about best practices, I have avoided pointing fingers, naming names and loudly decrying every such example because I don't think it fair to do so. I do try to keeping in mind -as you have pointed out - that for me, this is not a business. It is not my livelihood. It is not how I house and feed my family. For those that do, I try to display the consideration that my ponted belly-aching, even if accurate, could have an unfortunate and unfair impact.

Now,I am not talking about actual dishonesty here - I'm all for calling a thief a thief so that others may be protected (which is my livelihood). But I don't think it would do the world of custom knives net good for me to single out a particular maker or a particular maker and hold them forward as examples of poor practices. That is my view, my approach, my choice. I don't require others to see it my way and I don't seek to impose it on anyone. I don't run the show here.

If we are moving next to examine some over-priced knives at Knifeart, bitch about Bladegallery's crappy packaging or vigorously inspect Nordic's promptness in replying to e-mails, (fictional examples all) count me out. If we are going to sound off on Jerry Fisk's clueless business practices, indifferent fit and finish and poor resale value (you better believe that is fictional), I'll pass as well. Are these subjects generally worthy of discussion? Sure. Are they best discussed in this fashion? Not in my books.

Roger
 
Savage, :thumbup:

Cool, now lets get the heart of the matter!

How is my case looking against that darned Holiday Inn Express? ;)

P
 
WoodWorkGhost said:
Hi Roger,

Roger, whether you realize it or not, every time we lose a collectors who buys $500 + knives, the entire market suffers. It is one less collector buying one less knife or in most cases several fewer knives. This is one less person you can buy from or trade with or sell to.

WWG
Click to expand...

Very true. And we will no doubt lose some collectors.
That's why it's so important to bring in new collectors and mentor them to help them stay.
 
I wrote a five paragraph response this afternoon to this thread. I didn't hit submit as it riled me up too much. In a nutshell, RogerP covered EXACTLY what I wanted to say, only with more clarity.

Amen, brother. :thumbup:

Folks, going down this road for the greater good of saving potential custom collectors is putting the cart before the horse. Association by default is a shaky premise to lambast an honest dealer because of his business policies. I know the difference and so should anyone who pulls out their credit card. This ain't our job to be the police.

Another thread that now deserves to be in the GB&U. Randy Morgan, our moderator had already put his .02¢ in. This has turned embarrasing.

Coop
 
SharpByCoop said:
Another thread that now deserves to be in the GB&U. Randy Morgan, our moderator had already put his .02¢ in. This has turned embarrasing.

Coop
Click to expand...

Thus spoketh the Conscience of the Forums, a man who cannot choose a position, but lambasts those who do.

I have no embarassment for your lack of position, Coop, why would you be embarassed for those of us that do?

Mike could have minimized the damage, by being a voice of reason, a la yourself, Esav Benyamin, or the sorely missed Mr. Mattis, but he chose to go the hard route.

Calling out WWG is not a wise decision, from a personal OR business perspective, publicly, even if you don't like him.

Thus Spoke Zarathustra

O my brothers, your nobility should not look backward but ahead! Exiles shall you be from all father- and forefather-lands! Your children’s land shall you love: this love shall be your new nobility—the undiscovered land in the most distant sea. For that I bid your sails search and search. In your children you shall make up for being the children of your fathers: thus shall you redeem all that is past. This new tablet I place over you.
Part III, Chapter 56, On Old and New Tablets

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Hi Guys,

This is just from a casual observers point of view...hey hey hey. If Randy can be a newbie collector I can be a casual observer.

The main reason I like these threads is that I personally know and respect the majority of the people who have posted in this thread. Even those I don't know I respect their opinion...even Mike's.

Consequently, I know these are serious custom knife people. Who in total have tens of thousands of hours doing "homework" and Hundreds of Thousands of dollars in custom knives (regardless if they still have them or not).

Threads like these because of the participants and their credentials serve the community of custom knives more than any of us can imagine.

Roger P, who has credentials without peer. Known in his native Canada along with Keith Montgomery with regards to forged blades as the "MAN". Just to make sure full disclosure is met, Roger does have a knife on order with me.

Coop, who does have very strong opinions and on occasion he lets them out to play. Coop is the official photographer of Vanguard knives. In my opinion that you are for the money the best knife photographer in the country.

Mr. Garsson, you sir ROCK. STeven is the keeper of the "you better bring your "A" game if you ae going to post here rules...a Sergeant of Arms if you will! I can always count on you for an honest and forthright opinion. Even when your opinion differs from mine and you are obviously wrong. :D

Peter " The Senator" Gill, his eye and opinion are always of value to me as they should be to you. As only he has the gift of being able to tell you that you are both right and wrong at the same time.

Randy Morgan, our forum moderator, who soon will tire of fishing and return to his true "collectible" Love! Don't let his gruff and grumpy exterior fool you...he will go out of his way to help friend.

Anthony Lombardo, short term wrecker of the forged market. It is always amazing what he can pull out of his closet. As well Anthony is another John M. Smith Aficionado!!!

Stephen Foster, who as Roger P and Keith in his country he is the "MAN" with regards to the forged blade. Perhaps it is his European lineage that has him leaning towards a 21st renaissance of the "Art" of the Forged Blade.

Don the "Sunfish" Hanson, an exceptional maker of both folders and fixed blades. Always the gentleman and professional.

Joss, the King of the Northwest custom knife collectors and our resident Don Fogg Expert.

For the newbies and lurkers out there take advantage of these individuals. They will not steer your wrong and most times will go out of their way to answer your questions.

You know things take on a whole new clarity when you pop a couple of Prozac.

WWG
Better living through Chemistry!
 
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