Follow the Sheep Horn Fighter Thread

nifrand said:
Mike at RCK puts his money where his mouth is.Thats why he has those knives. No big deal on return policies.
Just an opinion of a newbie collector.
Randy
Ps I think some of you have way too much time on your hands,from the topics I have seen lately on the Custom Knife Forums.But I guess it keeps the forums rolling along.Also just my opinion.
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Was wondering. Would your opinion be different if you were on the buying end, rather than the selling end? :confused:
 
Kevin Jones said:
Was wondering. Would your opinion be different if you were on the buying end, rather than the selling end? :confused:
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Yep have had a bit of experience at both.Not as much mind you as yourself Kevin but have had a bit.But my reasons for collecting were not the same as possibly yours but it was fun like trapshooting,got pretty good at that but after 20 years of it,I was a pretty good trapshooter ,it also went by the way.And you know why.Because it was not fun any more.
I enjoy fishing and wanted to buy a real good flyrod.I didn't give a $hit how much it was, or how muchI can sell it for.ThatsBS,just wanted a qualityfly rod that worked for me.I used it when I floated the Bitterroot on Sat.Was casting 50 or so feet across to a seam in the water and you know what,that rod that I could not get half my money back on today,did a supurb job and I caught 2 nice Rainbows.Fun stuff.In fact i purchased it with the money from
RCK knives.
Like I said KevinI have been on both sides of the fence.And RCK puts his money where his mouth is.Sold that williams in two days.
Edited to add ,the only reason to return that fly rod would be if there was a defect in workmanship or materials.So far there is none.
 
I have heard from over 100 makers and collectors that they really enjoy them and are learning a lot. Take the return policy in question. Had another collector who had been following this thread not told me about this I wouldn't know. I know that if I am learning things from this thread others must be.

Blade just contacted me about my seminar at the Blade Show this year for the collectors. Rest easy that I will be discussing return policies and restocking fees.

The great thing about running your own business is that you can put whatever parameters you want on it. The down side is that customers don't have to utilize your services if they feel that you do not have their best interests at heart.

WWG
 
nifrand said:
Mike at RCK puts his money where his mouth is.Thats why he has those knives.No big deal on return policies.
Just an opinion of a newbie collector.
Randy
Ps I think some of you have way too much time on your hands,from the topics I have seen lately on the Custom Knife Forums.But I guess it keeps the forums rolling along.Also just my opinion.
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Randy,

I'm not sure what you are saying.

How is a return policy not a big deal, again? What if you don't like the knife you just purchased from a picture on the internet? What if it is too heavy, wrong shape for your hand, the other side of the stag is ugly.....? What if the dealer tells you to go pack sand, and this is your first custom knife purchase?

If you are sayingt that a dealer not having a viable return policy is ok, to that I call BS, and add that it is frikkin illegal, as well as unethical to the nth degree!

You are hardly a newbie collector, that is not even funny.

For some of us, knives are one of the most important thing in our lives, after family, work, and maybe health. Remember, not too long ago, it was that way with you too.

I understand that you have had your life and priorities change, can feel that, and understand it. Good health, and best wishes to you, my friend.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
For some of us, knives are one of the most important thing in our lives, after family, work, and maybe health. Remember, not too long ago, it was that way with you too.

I understand that you have had your life and priorities change, can feel that, and understand it. Good health, and best wishes to you, my friend.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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STeven,
As always you are a voice of the devils advocate and I really value you and your opinion and am very proud to call you my friend.
Randy
 
Kohai999 said:
Randy,



If you are sayingt that a dealer not having a viable return policy is ok, to that I call BS, and add that it is frikkin illegal, as well as unethical to the nth degree!



STeven Garsson
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Not illegal. A lot of small busnesses have a no refund, credit only return policy.

Most of the knife dealers I've worked with have an inspection period, were if you don't like it, you can return it within that time frame for a full refund less shipping charges.
 
nifrand said:
Yep have had a bit of experience at both.Not as much mind you as yourself Kevin but have had a bit.But my reasons for collecting were not the same as possibly yours but it was fun like trapshooting,got pretty good at that but after 20 years of it,I was a pretty good trapshooter ,it also went by the way.And you know why.Because it was not fun any more.
I enjoy fishing and wanted to buy a real good flyrod.I didn't give a $hit how much it was, or how muchI can sell it for.ThatsBS,just wanted a qualityfly rod that worked for me.I used it when I floated the Bitterroot on Sat.Was casting 50 or so feet across to a seam in the water and you know what,that rod that I could not get half my money back on today,did a supurb job and I caught 2 nice Rainbows.Fun stuff.In fact i purchased it with the money from
RCK knives.
Like I said KevinI have been on both sides of the fence.And RCK puts his money where his mouth is.Sold that williams in two days.
Edited to add ,the only reason to return that fly rod would be if there was a defect in workmanship or materials.So far there is none.
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Randy, first I probably don't have one tenth of the experience or knowledge you have with knives and second what does my reason for collecting have to do with my post? I collect knives because I love knives. Anyway, I just asked a simple question. I know from the thread that you sell knives to Mike, but have no idea if you buy from him, or if you are familiar with his return policy? Thus the question.

I have bought, sold to and consigned with Mike over the years and communicate with him quite often and am on good terms with him. I am probably one of the few here that think his price on the Williams sheephorn is reasonable (well anyway, before all this negative press effected its value).

However, I have always thought his return policy or lack of one is very usual for an internet sales company which operate under a model that the customers can't actually see, smell or touch the product that's being considered. So most internet sales companies go far beyond a normal store retailer in trying to make the customer feel comfortable and confidence that they are not at risk in that all money is 100% refundable if not completely satisfied. I know of no other knife dealer or for that matter any other internet sales company that does not offer complete satisfaction guarantee.

I still deal with Mike and feel he is free to run his business as he see fit, however I bet this policy has cost him quite a few sales over the years.

Randy, it seems you I quite often have different views and that's OK as its what makes things interesting.
 
sunfishman said:
Not illegal. A lot of small busnesses have a no refund, credit only return policy.

Most of the knife dealers I've worked with have an inspection period, were if you don't like it, you can return it within that time frame for a full refund less shipping charges.
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The legality of it varies form state to state, but the vast majority of states do require money back on purchases if not satisfied.
 
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I wouldn't expect to get my money back if I bought a knife and didn't like it later on. If I bought a knife on consignment, I'd expect to send it back within a week or it's mine...and I'd pay shipping both ways if I shipped it back. If I bought a knife that developed a defect, I'd expect the maker (not dealer) to make it right. If I used a knive and it needed repair, I'd expect the maker to fix it if they are still in business. That's how a man operates in a man's world. My expectations have always been met in all my custom knife transactions.

WWG offers his money back guarentee. When I first heard of it I though of PTBarnum and started looking for the fool. :) However, I realized that WWG is not selling knives but an investment service. He stays with the crest of the wave when it comes to marketability...that's why he has the buying rules. His prices are top line and reflect his cut. He has developed a "model" and successfully manipulates the market using the media (shows, print and forums) to enhance his client's (sellers and buyers) position. He is personable and a good salesman with an excellent line (I've seen and heard him in operation.) If his business grows and the bottom falls out of the custom knife market, he will fold his tent and the money back guarentee will be useless. If business is good, the guarentee will be as good as his life expectancy.
 
Brownshoe,

It is my understanding that RCC's return policy for a cash refund is as follows:

"RETURNS: Must be made within 5 days upon receipt of the knife. The knives must be insured and sent at the expense of the sender. Please notify us of any returns before sending them."

The bottomline is that the RCC buyer is allowed a limited period of time in which to actually examine the goods and determine that he is pleased with the knife. If he is not, for any reason. The Buyer covers the return shipping and get his money back. No harm no foul.

There are aspects of a knife's fit, finish, and condition that simply cannot be determined from a photo on the Internet.
 
Hi Brownshoe,

First, you haven't been reading the threads here very well. Surely by now you realize that custom knives cannot be used as investments. :D

My "top of the line prices" 95% of the time are the makers retail price. It is those makers who consistently add a premium who do not have a trade in policy. As they premium they charge has for the most part has evaporated and ROI at least for the near term.

You are correct about my marketing skills, although I don't know how much one person can manipulate the market. Perhaps you give me too much credit in this area. I do agree with you that no other dealer in the country provides the makers they represent with the marketing of their knives that I do.

If the custom knife market gets to the point where I have to fold up my tent. My clients will have a lot bigger problems then trading their knives back in. But your assessment that my trade in policy is good for as long as I am in business is correct.

As for being a "Dealer or Purveyor" I stopped using that designation years ago. I consider myself a custom knife Entrepreneur. As you stated I do so much more than merely sell custom knives. Once I formed LDC Custom Knives with Bob Neal 7 years ago I stopped being merely a dealer or purveyor.

Your post was a little off, but for the most part accurate. Thanks.

WWG
Custom Knife Entrepreneur!
 
Hi Kevin,

The Consumer Protection Act of 1987 was drafted primarily to deal with the Used Car business. Referred to by many as the "lemon laws". I believe this law was amended to say that anything bought through the mail or sight unseen will be allowed a 3 Business Day inspection period. Perhaps some states have amended variations of the CPA of 1987?

Banks followed up on this later on to protect the consumer (not the merchant) with a policy called "Charge Back". Some banks allow you to return the item up to 6 months after the time of purchase.

If you purchase something sight unseen and are unhappy with it and choose to return the item. If the company tells you they will not accept the return, you contact the credit card issuer. Usually you will need to write out your complaint and provide them with proof that you returned the item. At that time the card company contacts the merchant and issues a charge back. Which means the credit card company takes the money out of the merchants bank. Then the merchant has to justify why they did not accept the return.

As a merchant you pay your merchant bank a pre-designated percentage on each transaction. Take as an example a $500 transaction. If the fee is 3% the Merchant gets $485 and the bank gets $15. If you refund the money the Merchant has $485 taken out of their account and the bank pays the other $15.

Of course if you don't allow refunds and only give store credit. The merchant bank will not cover the 3% fee. So to add insult to injury you are now making the customer pay for sellers no refund policy. On Peter's earlier example a $1250 knife will cost the buyer $37.50 because the seller has a no refund policy.

WWG
 
Hi Sunfish,

I buy a lot of things on line and through the mail. I can't think of an example of a business I have bought from that has a no refund policy. With the exception of something that is custom ordered to your specifications.

Can you give me a couple of examples of companies that you buy from that won't allow you to return things for a full refund?

WWG
 
gaussian said:
Ah, good point. Let me re-phrase then, if you'd paid $1150 from a private collector would you have taken $800 for it now or held out for more? Just trying to understand how taking a loss on a piece vs making a profit affects pricing in sales vs perceived market value of a piece.

I know that when I sell something (not just knives), if I'm taking a loss I get a little more concerned about narrowing the loss as opposed to increasing margin on a profitable sale. I'm pretty sure this is exactly the wrong way to approach things, but am curious about what other people think.
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It is kind of like my having to sell my 120+ guns in 1975 to keep my knife business afloat. I went to the Dallas gun show and the dealers stripped me to the bone in about two hours. What I got for each gun would make you cry but I stayed in the knife business and could now buy those guns back if I could find them. When you need the money you have to move.
 
WoodWorkGhost said:
Hi Sunfish,

I buy a lot of things on line and through the mail. I can't think of an example of a business I have bought from that has a no refund policy. With the exception of something that is custom ordered to your specifications.

Can you give me a couple of examples of companies that you buy from that won't allow you to return things for a full refund?

WWG
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I just stated, that I did not think it was illegal to have a no refund policy. Not sure about the internet but have been in many mom and pop stores that had a sign saying "all sales final, no refunds". I do believe a busness should give a refund if the customer is not satisfied, within a reasonable length of time.
 
sunfishman said:
I just stated, that I did not think it was illegal to have a no refund policy. Not sure about the internet but have been in many mom and pop stores that had a sign saying "all sales final, no refunds". I do believe a busness should give a refund if the customer is not satisfied, within a reasonable length of time.
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That may be the case with many "consumables" mom-and-pops, with food and drink, frequently it cannot legally be resold. Other items include hygeine items, underwear, bathing suits, sheets....the internet uses mail/common carrier for delivery, so one would presume in the majority of cases, that federal statutes would apply.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
I have to give Mike at RCK thumbs up when it comes to my dealings with him.There's been a few times I didn't like the knife I bought from him and called him and told him I wasn't satisfied with something about the knife and he's returned my money in a quick and timely manner.But I will tell you one thing I wouldn't buy that Ugly sheephorn handled thing period.I saw it when it was on Nordic's site and even under $500 I still didn't even consider buying it.With that handle,it's not just Ugly,it's FUGLY:barf:
Buddy S.:cool:
 
Hi Sunfish,

Ok, so you are talking about buying something that you can actually see and put your hands on. Like buying a knife at a show not through the Internet.

Although I have had collectors bring back knives the next day...usually with the wife and ask for a refund. LOL

WWG
 
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