For whom the bell tolls

[TomFetter]

I'm always sorry to see someone banned, especially someone who's contributed to the community here. But the fact of the published correspondance tells us a few things.

• The gent concerned had a lapse of judgement. Private correspondence (esp. about a conflict!) is just that - private. Posting it was not on, as he clearly knew.
• Clear notice had been given, more than once, before any action was taken. The gent's temperature was high enough to prompt him to disregard it. I think it's a shame he made such a choice, and I'll miss him.

This place isn't a reality program.We know that we don't get to vote someone on or off the island - by participating here, we implicitly and explicitly give that authority to the Mods. Who, in order to do their jobs, are only indirectly accountable to the forum ... and directly accountable to the forum owners and organizers. This isn't news, it isn't unique, and it isn't unfair ... even if we disagree with some Mod decisions. It's what we signed on for. I've participated in other, even less moderated forums ... with decidedly more mixed results.

Bottom line? The forum is a gift. It exists with the character it has precisely because we approach it and each other with care and respect. Keeping it the kind of gift we want to receive is both an individual and a collective responsibility.

Now who's for that beer - I'm buying.

Tom.

 

[Kevin the grey]

This is what I mean by us not being in posession of all the facts . What we are in posession of is a viewpoint . This necessarily blinds us to what we don,t want to see . It is up to the moderators to decide what is done . I am not a sheep to be led . I am not so sure I even like to be governed . That having been said I do think that it is we who have asked to be here . We are priveleged to be here .
I do not think that this is a question of something that could have been nipped in the bud by a gentle compassionate word . It seems to me it is a case of someone trying various unending means to further an alterior motive
But then I am not in posession of all the facts . Just a viewpoint .

 

[brokenhallelujah]

Anything that I could have said about this, Norm has already said better than I could have.

I am sorry to see this -- all of it -- happen.

As I have said before, I am not just here for the khuks, so this sort of thing is really upsetting.

The only thing that I wish I had done differently was to pipe up sooner, maybe draw some fire, or take some steam out of the interaction.

If we are, in fact, a community, then WE failed at some level.

My dos centavos.

 

[hollowdweller]

It’s funny though. Some of those who are banned are among those whose posts I enjoy most. Perhaps it’s the unusual thinking. Perhaps it’s the challenges to prevalent values. Perhaps it’s the chutzpah. Maybe it’s the challenges to an individual to look at himself from a different angle. Socrates had them all, and the Athenians finally got fed up enough with him to mix him a hemlock cocktail. [/FONT]

“The only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn, like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars..."
-- "On The Road”

:thumbup:

 

[hollowdweller]

Ben A A could have asked the new crew to come back. He didn't. He snuck in, and immediately went for a vein. Why? It's not mine to think about why too much.
If he didn't care, he wouldn't expect us to either. He wanted it this way.

Edit; I'm going to add this, because it bothers me. There was no reason for Bwray to be banned. He lost sight of context, and what he was doing. I can't imagine publishing letters in our forum, and it is hard to think an otherwise reasonable fellow would do that. That scares me, that bothers me: the thought that someone might have egged him on to do that. He may have been given a bum steer.

munk

I didn't know Bwray had got banned I don't read every post so I must have missed it. I'd have to say that overall I enjoyed his posts. I always liked him. Hope he sticks around the internet world anyway.

I always enjoyed Ben most of the time too, but to me, and I like him, that it got to the point that he forgot to balance his sarcasam with humor. I kind of like someone that slaps me upside the head and makes me think. But if they are just slapping me upside the head because they like it, or they want to bring up some kind of depressing thing not because it has some relevance, but more just to put a little bummer on someone so they can steal some energy off them I don't like it as much.:thumbdn:

 

[munk]

Rusty was not agreed with by 100% of the forum all the time.
Bill was not agreed with 100% of the time. I didn't always agree with him, and some folks stopped talking to him. Believe it. They were upset by people he refused to BAN.

Did any of you read the last apology thread?
Do you understand?
There is a part of me now that you do not have 'control' of- it is not a democratic process. If it were, you would have no moderator, but chaos.

I do not expect to please all of you all the time. I am not even going to submit all I do, or all I know, for your analysis and quick vote, or your approval.

If I tried that in the first year, I was wrong. Some of you disliked me anyway. What is 'fair' then, or proof, or right?

I will do the best job I know how for you always. I won't lie to you. I won't put myself first, and have not.

I am changing- you are all changing. There are some voices not heard in this thread; their decison. Most are here, some may have left. I saw this at first as something sacred that must not be allowed to change- ever. I was wrong there, too. And most of you were right- this is fluid, this place, steamship or Cantina, moves onward, and clicks and groups of people will come and go.

I've been warned, threatened, not talked to, sniped at, gossiped behind my back, ridiculed, openly insulted, and held in comtempt. I've also been loved by the vast majority of you, a gift I'm thankful for every minute. The positives in our forum far far outweigh the negatives.

It is always your choice what you do about a situation, yourselves, and any moderator and any forum.

Those of you who think I'm unsuited for this job may campaign openly for my removal or go directly to Yangdu. You may be surprised and taken aback by what Yangdu would say about that.

I'm learning. I've done some good stuff in a tough year, and there have been rough times.

A big part of me does not want this job. I'm a story teller, not a power seeker. In the last days, Rusty said to me several times, "I gave the 41 to the right man." Sometimes a little trouble had started, other times I was just 'telling' him all I knew in my heart about what was going on around here.

I had difficulty believing he was right many times this last year, and of course, several icons of the Cantina are convinced he was wrong.

This place, wonderful place, finds more truth than any internet connection I've seen. We are in the vanguard of the newest sociopolitical movement in Man's history, and at a turning point as important as the Flood or the invention of the wheel.

We'll stumble sometimes. Your three moderators have one quality in common that is rock solid and I would bet on every time: they each of them, in their own way, seek the Truth so intensly, that their own egos fall by the wayside.

There are forumites who want me to fail. Some are well intentioned, some are not. But effort is being made to disrupt the Cantina and my 'moderatorship'.

That is a given for now on, it comes with the territory.

Some of the advice given to Bwray, almost certainly (in statistical probability) did not want what was good for Bwray. That makes me sad and offends my sense of justice.

I think the people in this thread are doing a great job. You are the ones who care and will interact with the process. New Good Old Days are here. God bless all of you for that.

I like the Cantina. The sun light strikes through the open windows on the table top in front of me just right, perfect, and I'm able to see the glass, the water rings, and the grain of wood, and most importantly, all of your faces.

I toast to you all present in this room.


munk

 

[hollowdweller]

Rusty was not agreed with by 100% of the forum all the time.
Bill was not agreed with 100% of the time. I didn't always agree with him, and some folks stopped talking to him. Believe it. They were upset by people he refused to BAN.

Did any of you read the last apology thread?
Do you understand?
There is a part of me now that you do not have 'control' of- it is not a democratic process. If it were, you would have no moderator, but chaos.

I do not expect to please all of you all the time. I am not even going to submit all I do, or all I know, for your analysis and quick vote, or your approval.

If I tried that in the first year, I was wrong. Some of you disliked me anyway. What is 'fair' then, or proof, or right?

I will do the best job I know how for you always. I won't lie to you. I won't put myself first, and have not.

I am changing- you are all changing. There are some voices not heard in this thread; their decison. Most are here, some may have left. I saw this at first as something sacred that must not be allowed to change- ever. I was wrong there, too. And most of you were right- this is fluid, this place, steamship or Cantina, moves onward, and clicks and groups of people will come and go.

I've been warned, threatened, not talked to, sniped at, gossiped behind my back, ridiculed, openly insulted, and held in comtempt. I've also been loved by the vast majority of you, a gift I'm thankful for every minute. The positives in our forum far far outweigh the negatives.

It is always your choice what you do about a situation, yourselves, and any moderator and any forum.

Those of you who think I'm unsuited for this job may campaign openly for my removal or go directly to Yangdu. You may be surprised and taken aback by what Yangdu would say about that.

I'm learning. I've done some good stuff in a tough year, and there have been rough times.

A big part of me does not want this job. I'm a story teller, not a power seeker. In the last days, Rusty said to me several times, "I gave the 41 to the right man." Sometimes a little trouble had started, other times I was just 'telling' him all I knew in my heart about what was going on around here.

I had difficulty believing he was right many times this last year, and of course, several icons of the Cantina are convinced he was wrong.

This place, wonderful place, finds more truth than any internet connection I've seen. We are in the vanguard of the newest sociopolitical movement in Man's history, and at a turning point as important as the Flood or the invention of the wheel.

We'll stumble sometimes. Your three moderators have one quality in common that is rock solid and I would bet on every time: they each of them, in their own way, seek the Truth so intensly, that their own egos fall by the wayside.

There are forumites who want me to fail. Some are well intentioned, some are not. But effort is being made to disrupt the Cantina and my 'moderatorship'.

That is a given for now on, it comes with the territory.

Some of the advice given to Bwray, almost certainly (in statistical probability) did not want what was good for Bwray. That makes me sad and offends my sense of justice.

I think the people in this thread are doing a great job. You are the ones who care and will interact with the process. New Good Old Days are here. God bless all of you for that.

I like the Cantina. The sun light strikes through the open windows on the table top in front of me just right, perfect, and I'm able to see the glass, the water rings, and the grain of wood, and most importantly, all of your faces.

I toast to you all present in this room.


munk

Munk,

Try not to worry. You are doing a good job.:thumbup:

I think the most important thing is to let people know what they are doing wrong before they get banned.I'm not saying this in reference to anyone that's been banned recently, but to myself who was unable to log on one morning and then figured out later that day I was banned

Most of the posts lately I've seen that got to the edge folks kind of knew and pulled back. Sorry to hear there were a few casualties

 

[munk]

Hollow- you came back. And I was glad.
Just because I did wrong once and was in jail, does not mean I am going to continue to do wrong and spend my life in jail.

I've never heard of a lifetime ban- but they probably exist after multiple attempts and reinstatement did not work.


munk

 

[hollowdweller]

Hollow- you came back. And I was glad.
Just because I did wrong once and was in jail, does not mean I am going to continue to do wrong and spend my life in jail.

I've never heard of a lifetime ban- but they probably exist after multiple attempts and reinstatement did not work.


munk

I don't know what the BF policy is but most places they like ban you for a week or something. If when the person comes back they immediately want to start a fight again then they are banned for good, but if they come back and don't have a chip all is good.

 

[Svashtar]

Hollow- you came back. And I was glad.
Just because I did wrong once and was in jail, does not mean I am going to continue to do wrong and spend my life in jail.

I've never heard of a lifetime ban- but they probably exist after multiple attempts and reinstatement did not work.


munk

Glad to hear it! I will pass that along to Bwray then, who was told he could never return.

I appreciate the work the mods do, really, and maybe I'm asking the impossible! Comparing people and how they handled things to how Uncle Bill would have handled it is a tall order for any man. And Bwray _should not_ have posted private correspondence, no matter how telling and revealing it was. Comparing him to Rice does a disservice to the forum. Does anyone remember Burafan? Does Bwrays offense equate to that? Uncle Bill even let him back once anyway, and he was a real piece of work.

But there was an opportunity in that private email thread, a brief window that had been opened, where Bwray conceded he had made a mistake, extended an olive branch, and the best that the forum has to offer could have been extended to Bill, and instead he got talked to like a punk.

And that subsequently infuriated him, and escalated things all out of proportion. Emails, resignations, anger. And then after he was gone we get this more in sorrow than in anger "what could have led poor Bill astray!?" spin.

Ok, fine. Bill effed up and he's gone. I can tell you when he posted that private email thread publicly yesterday I knew he was gone. I'll shut up now and keep my 10,000 words to myself.

But I am part of the forum, at least for today. I think this was handled wrong initially (in the email correspondence that followed the avatar resize request.) I think some people are valuable forumites, who add a tremendous amount to the forum, and I can't imagine it without them, but that doesn't necessarily always translate to being a good mod with the right temperament when confronted with conflict.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

As to what Yangdu has to say about the subject, I will discuss that with her privately, as suggested, and keep the feedback to myself.

FWIW, here _is_ a part of my 10,000 words: I fully realize that my last posts in this thread end what could have been a close friendship, and that I am solely responsible for that. I am more upset by that than you probably realize.

As before in the 3/24 thread, I apologize for the upset this has caused. But there's a time to sit and a time to jump, and I felt something had to be said, not to defend Bwray, but the way in which the issue was handled in the email thread while wearing a moderator hat, that led inevitably to this. We are either a forum of individuals being moderated, or a forum with a Leader who directs us in the way we should conform.

Finally, I would kindly suggest to many of you that you look up both the verb and the adjective "moderate", and see what it says. The power of the role should be like the best and most efficient of things, quiet, and in the background, only used when really needed.

Like I said, I'll shut up now! I've said my bit, and will take Nasty up on that cold Heineken now.

(Back to your regularly scheduled programming...)

Best Regards,

Norm

 

[munk]

I'm not going to promise anything, and I'm not a moderator by proxy or popular movment. You understand, I hope, all of us? We can't allow anyone to get his desire by the size of the fuss made. If I think too hard on what's happened, and what line was crossed, well, the word 'final' comes to mind. BUTI'm going to do the best thing I can for everyone, and let this go. I don't care very much about saving face. Sometimes I'm going to do things that will make me look real bad, and I'm not going to explain or make it seem 'nice' to you. I can't. That's not right. I have to take occasional hits to do this job right. The zen paradox here is that by adherence to principle, at times I will look unscrupilous. ( I can't spell today) And there will be many times that I'll get rolled over by a bigger truth- I won't look good, my ego will be publically trounced.
In your gut, when this happens, you'll know in general if it's 'right'.

I believe in redemption. If we only accepted perfect people here it would not be the Cantina, it would be egomaniacs, it might be Mensa, but it wouldn't be us humans.

(don't any of you remember the start of this? When I asked how can I go to bat for you if some won't acknowledge the behavior that got us here? I said then to let it go, give it a rest. Let it heal, I thought, and who knows what redemption or change is possible for the future? I'm not a law and order guy; I'm a redemption guy. I've been heavily criticised for that, btw.)

I think we're on the right track now. The truth has a habit of healing the injuries it brings as it knocks down walls.


munk

 

[Yangdu]

I support munk 100 percent. Bill Supported Rusty the same way. Munk has carried the spirit of what Bill and Rusty wanted, and what I want today.
Bwray did this to himself. Step back and look.
Let peace come over this now.

 

[MauiRob]

Let peace come over this now.

(Yangdu)

Agreed and thank you for weighing in on this.

I think we're on the right track now. The truth has a habit of healing the injuries it brings as it knocks down walls.
(Munk)

Yes.

Bottom line? The forum is a gift. It exists with the character it has precisely because we approach it and each other with care and respect. Keeping it the kind of gift we want to receive is both an individual and a collective responsibility.

Very well said Tom.

 

[Svashtar]

<snip>

I believe in redemption. If we only accepted perfect people here it would not be the Cantina, it would be egomaniacs, it might be Mensa, but it wouldn't be us humans.

<rest snipped>

Believe me, it wouldn't be Mensa either. (-;

 

[Svashtar]

I support munk 100 percent. Bill Supported Rusty the same way. Munk has carried the spirit of what Bill and Rusty wanted, and what I want today.
Bwray did this to himself. Step back and look.
Let peace come over this now.

Of course. I will respect whatever you say Yangdu.

Peace to you as well.

 

[munk]

A Short Story: I Can't Believe It's Not Butter

I wrote a guy recently, asked him what the trouble was, could I or another mod help? He hadn't been posting in his normal character IMO, and was quietly suggesting doubts about the forum.

I never did learn what the problem was. He didn't trust me enough to tell me, or? He was coy, guarded, as if I knew 'something" and we were playing cat and mouse. He said, "you can't even write a 'what's going on with you" letter without a value judgement. You still feel you must weigh in with your opinion on practically every thread on the forum."

Paraphrased. I probably have this wrong. As the most despicable man in North America, I get a lot of stuff wrong per my master plan of world domination or whatever. I had no idea what this meant. Today I figured it out. Bill used to say, "good stuff and thanks." And in every forum I've ever seen, the moderator is a guy who comes by and encourages happy conversation. He says 'attaboy' a lot.

There are many wise and knowledgable people in this forum who I couldn't begin to 'weigh in' on their specialites. You know? We've got some real talented folks here. I didn't want to say; Good Stuff and Thanks- because that was Bill's. So I've been going to threads, and trying to find an element I could relate to, and say something positive about it. Look at it from jaundiced eyes: how dare I opine on my betters? Who did I think I was? Was I coming down from Mt Olympus with my new swelled head from moderatorship? It may look insufferable to some eyes.

I wonder- how did those eyes get there? What took the assumption of me being a fairly good guy away, and in it's place put this other thing? I don't know. You see what a wonderful job this is?

In truth, once you remove the good guy grace, you can take almost all the behavior, the same behavior that was acceptable previously, and it now fits into someone's dark vision.

There are forumites who have encourged this. I'm not even gonna cry about it. You can't even tell it's not butter.

This is just one little way how my life has changed since becoming mod.

And why things are not what they appear to be all the time. Trust your guts, not always your eyes.


munk

 

[Josh Feltman]

I have only the vaguest idea what this thread is about, but John Donne sure did rock! Nothing removes annoying panties like a well-crafted metaphysical conceit.

 

[Mike L.]

As a relative re-newbie here...I have something to suggest to those whose feelings may be hurt or whatever. Take a week or two off from posting or even lurking here and see what happens. You will get a better idea of how much you truly do or don't matter in the grand scheme.
I have read a lot of the "stuff" that went on here prior to my re-entry. I think Munk and Nasty are doing a grand job. Hells bells what do you guys want for what you're paying them!
Try to remember old Bill Wilson's Rule #62. It will make your life (and mine, and Munk's, and your wife's, and...)
much easier. "Never take yourself too damn seriously."

Like Miss Y said, Peace to all.

--Mike L>

 

[Fiddleback]

I have only the vaguest idea what this thread is about, but John Donne sure did rock! Nothing removes annoying panties like a well-crafted metaphysical conceit.

LOL.

 

[jurassicnarc44]

Obviously my several days away were busy for you all! Once upon a time, a long, long time ago in Detroit I showed up after all the shooting was over, the bar was empty except for a few Detroit Homicide Dets. sifting through the after math. I specifically remember seeing blood and bits of gray matter on the wall, the top of the pool table soaked and dark, and I remember thinking "Glad I wasn't here, Glad no one had to call my wife". Then, as now, I had the common sense not to ask for details, just thankful that someone like Munk, Nasty or Aunt Yangdu had the experience and the fortitude to do the job. In my mind's eye, I'm walking over to the bar, pouring a glass, and raising it to the Mods who have the thankless job of bringing order here.......Thanks, Folks