Forged blade or stock removal ?

pitdog

pitdog

Joined
Apr 13, 2007
Messages
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Do you think either method produces an advantage over the other, I read this passage and it's got me wondering ?



What is a hand-forged knife?
In my shop, a hand-forged knife is one who's blade is forged with to shape with a hammer, on an anvil. The blade is then heat treated, ground without the aid of jigs or rests and fitted with a handle and other fittings one at a time. I use no molds, no dies, and no templates. The finished product is the result of a close partnership between my hands and my eyes - that’s it. Each knife is therefore, truly one-of-a-kind.

The forged blade...
All of my blades are hand-forged. A forged blade is superior to one made by stock removal for several reasons. (A stock removal blade is made by cutting, grinding or machining the blade from a section of bar stock.) The first is that the forging of the blade is really an integral part of the heat treating process. The cycling of the steel up and down from high to low heat as the blade is removed from the forge to the anvil causes the grain of the steel to be reduced. Similarly, the manipulation of the steel with a hammer or hydraulic press mechanically breaks down the grain of the steel. Since, for all practical purposes, smaller grain is superior to large grain, the forging process is able to push the performance of the steel beyond what is capable with a stock removal knife. Now, I will say that some steels, particularly the high-tech stainless steels will not respond well to this type of thermal cycling and this makes them better candidates for stock removal work.
 
I personally (not scientifically) have never noticed any big difference in performance between the two. I prefer forged blades. There is something about pounding red hot steel into whatever form you choose that is extremely gratifying. To me there is just something almost magical about them, something very ancient, and very solid that just draws me to them....hard to explain. That being said, that does not mean I don't love stock removal knives. I own quite a few and love them to death. I just have preference toward forged blades. I have never had a stock removal blade that did not hold it's own to any forged blade I have. I do not believe that anyone who does stock removal puts in any less effort and craftsmanship into their work than somebody who forges. In my opinion it is really personal preference. There are poor forged blades out there, and there are poor stock removal blades out there....what makes the difference in my book is the individual or company making it.
 
The comments are not correct on many points .We go through this discussion often on the Knife Makers section. With modern steels there is no advantage of forging. How they are heat treated makes all the difference.That's not of course meant to distract from the skills of the forger !
 
IMO, steel is steel. How you get to the end product is the makers personal preference.
Scott
 
pitdog said:
Similarly, the manipulation of the steel with a hammer or hydraulic press mechanically breaks down the grain of the steel.
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This is one of these famous urban myths about forging. The heat-treatment changes the structure of the steel and nothing else.
 
no difference - I like Stock removal for the design style and recreating from patterns so that the consistancy is there.
 
The first paragraph is more relevant than the second IMO. Basically it appeals to a certain degree of pride that results from the longer (perhaps, I don't know) route to making a blade. Forged blades also have some interesting aesthetics to them, like forging marks that can add to the charm of the knife and lend to its stylistic components.

The second paragraph is trying to demonstrate a technical superiority to a process that doesn't exist. I call that hype. Really, the end product of a knife is one that meets the design specifications of the maker. Admittedly, there is a certain appeal to having a blade 'hand rubbed' to polish or minimal modern tools used in its manufacture. However, that might not be the best path to making a modern and quality knife. It also might not be the best path to a economical/high performance blade which many of us come to expect.

Personally, I buy knives both on the basis of performance characteristics and also for aesthetic reasons. These choices can include both types of manufactured knives.
 
Technically, forging is better: most axes are forged and industry still use it for some critcal parts.

One question is can someone really notice any difference in knife applications. Plus forging is another process that creates some more room for mistakes.

That said I have many forged blades.
 
as I understand it. Any grain refinment that occurs from hammering is lost when the metal is heated to a nonmagnetic state. At that point, all the electrons are in flux and the hardening happens. It's the tempering after that, which refines the grain structure, as well as cryo for some. Cryo speeds the conversion of Austenite to Martensite, is some metals like A-2, and D-2. :D
 
The only advantage of forging I can see is the cycling... and that can easily be achieved on a ground knife too.... so I guess there really is no advantage.

(Grain refinement through mechanical manipulation and edge packing are all myths.... listen to Mete.)


EXCEPT......


When you are working with damascus. Obviously for asthetics... but I would think there are structural advantages too. Mete, please correct me if I'm wrong. (This is my own opinion) An example would be back-cutting the tip of a tanto and forging the tip up so that the layers follow the edge.

Other than that... it is purely an artistic statement..... steel has come a long way.

Rick
 
I have to add that improper forging practices can reek havoc on the the integrity of the steel.... stress cracks, overheating and forgewelding flaws are just a few of our obstacles.

So I would say that because of the many variables involved.... that forged blades have a higher probability for failure.... but a little knowledge and skill can overcome this downfall.

I switched from stock removal to forging about 2yrs ago... I have been given a great opportunity to learn from an ABS Master Smith. Forging has advantages for me that delve into the spiritual and universal energy aspects.... but that gets pretty hoaky to most folks, so I will spare you my ramblings.... lol.

Rick
 
I think forging had a real technical advantage before the advent of the more modern steels and heat treating processes. The modern heat treating processes do far more to ensure the structural integrity of the steel than whether or not it was forged or milled/sawn/ground.
 
Technically, forging is better: most axes are forged
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most axes are forged because milling and grinding out a block of steel big enough for an axe down to the size of an axe would waste more than half of that block of steel...

forging is good for using odd shaped sizes of steel and for using recycled steel. things like springs, propane tanks, etc, are all possible sources of steel for the forger. forging allows a lot of different shapes and works well for big knives.

stock removal guys are limited to barstock that has been forged down from ingots or round stock by someone else, because they can only reduce, and not move the metal.

keep in mind that all steel is forged before it makes it into a knife. either by the man with the hammer or by a huge power hammer in the smelting factory.
 
siguy said:
keep in mind that all steel is forged before it makes it into a knife. either by the man with the hammer or by a huge power hammer in the smelting factory.
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Thats wat I was thinking at the time of my post - But I couldnt word it right :)
 
I don't believe there are any practical advantages. I'm not swayed that Damascus has any relevance beyond the cosmetic in the modern world either. Further, but a tad more precarious, I don't see selective heat treating offering me anything of any practical value that a good solid through heat couldn't achieve. Whilst the above may be used by many makers to transform humble knife making into a real art form if I was looking for a tool to use I would consider all those components defunct.

That said, I do have a picture of the late Tom Beasley on one of my walls, [bladesmith of Wilkinson Sword fame]. I find creative talent motivational, but apart from things like the ability to draw a wire rod and drill a hole down the center of it by eye, so it resembles a drinking straw, there is something else that inspires confidence. Although I would never buy such a craftsman made blade for use, something nice comes from blades made long-hand in as much as you can judge all other knives by them. True, modern stainless may well urinate on all of them, but the designs of the old fashioned bladesmiths leave us with a legacy of poise, balance, pleasing taper, and cutting power. By contrast, stock removal run amok without those checks and balances often leaves a nasty taste. Like a child unleashed with power tools – take 1' of bar stock, allocate 5” as handle, cut one end off at 45°, Scandi grind along 7” bit and wrap string round the 5” bit. Voila, one prison shank made from a metal rule purloined from the woodwork shop, or a bit thicker and drain painted black a tactical tanto worth a day of your salary. Round the belly, add some off the shelf mosaic pins and woah, some nurk will try to price that at a couple of days. Dub on some crude saw teeth and have a market shpeel about 'real deal operators' and ...


I think where I'm heading with this is that although I will always favour stock removal blades; the real monsters [not the exotic art fantasy stuff or knives as jewelry of the bladesmiths], the horrors without a niche, the truly in all seriousness made fistful of gaucheness lacking in dexterity, aplomb or excellence at function are predominantly squarely in the stock removal heap. I'm delighted that bladesmiths are still out there with sufficient panache and pedigree to keep the market, stock removers and all, at least to some extent grounded.
 
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baldtaco-II said:
By contrast, stock removal run amok without those checks and balances often leaves a nasty taste. Like a child unleashed with power tools – take 1' of bar stock, allocate 5” as handle, cut one end off at 45°, Scandi grind along 7” bit and wrap string round the 5” bit. Voila, one prison shank made from a metal rule purloined from the woodwork shop, or a bit thicker and drain painted black a tactical tanto worth a day of your salary. Round the belly, add some off the shelf mosaic pins and woah, some nurk will try to price that at a couple of days. Dub on some crude saw teeth and have a market shpeel about 'real deal operators' and ...
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I understand what you are saying and there are plenty of examples out there to prove your point. However, getting a piece of steel hot and beating on it with a hammer does not necessarily make a good knife. I think your thinking can be applied to both stock removers and forgers.

Personally I think the quality and integrity of the steel is likely to be higher from bar stock. Modern mills that make knife steel have tested and developed some highly advanced cutlery steel and have quality control checks throughout the process. Compared to many forges that may use recycled steel of unknown quality and purity and the liklihood of impurities being introduced during the forging process, along with depending on the skill and knowledge of the bladesmith, I think barstock knives will generally offer superior steel.
 
Mike Carter Custom Knives said:
I understand what you are saying and there are plenty of examples out there to prove your point. However, getting a piece of steel hot and beating on it with a hammer does not necessarily make a good knife. I think your thinking can be applied to both stock removers and forgers.

Personally I think the quality and integrity of the steel is likely to be higher from bar stock. Modern mills that make knife steel have tested and developed some highly advanced cutlery steel and have quality control checks throughout the process. Compared to many forges that may use recycled steel of unknown quality and purity and the liklihood of impurities being introduced during the forging process, along with depending on the skill and knowledge of the bladesmith, I think barstock knives will generally offer superior steel.
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I'm inclined to agree. What I was driving at was twofold; materials and execution. As I said, I'm very definitely in the stock removal camp as far as materials are concerned, and as a clever person once remarked “nobody grinds S30V for the joy of grinding it” [or words to that effect indicating performance gains vs real PITA shaping it]. But my other point is uniquely regarding design, and for want of a better description the observation that stock removal makers are massively more likely to be away with faeries when it comes to it.
 
I think hand forged is "better" (and I use the term very subjectively) by virtue of work that goes into making them. If you compare a $200-300 factory knife with a similarly priced forged piece you really appreciate the little things that only come to your attention after handling and carefully examining the piece.

Take for example a puukko made by Jukka Hankala, in a small picture it looks like any other puukko with a nice wood handle, but when you look closer so much more is revealed. The taper of the blade, the angled flats giving the blade an diamond cross section, the way the handle--without guards or protrusions--clicks into it's leather sheath like it was kydex, these are things that come about only with a lot thought and experience, it's obvious the knife wasnt just drawn up and ushered into production.

Too many knives even very expensive ones look good on paper but in use reveal many problems with the design, problems that probably wouldnt exist if the maker had spent the time examining and handling the piece that doing it by hand forces you to.

But of course all this has to do with the nature of the process and nothing to do with the scientific differences in the steel its self. just my 2cents.
 
baldtaco-II said:
I think where I'm heading with this is that although I will always favour stock removal blades; the real monsters [not the exotic art fantasy stuff or knives as jewelry of the bladesmiths], the horrors without a niche, the truly in all seriousness made fistful of gaucheness lacking in dexterity, aplomb or excellence at function are predominantly squarely in the stock removal heap.
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BT - you're writing style sometimes confuses the heck out of me :confused::confused::confused:
It is a good point though that modern steels can be had in a stock removal process that might not be available under forging conditions.
 
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