Forged in fire, highs and lows

AVigil said:
There have been some of the best bladesmiths on the show. As thing go, some of them did not make it to the end.
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Wasn't one of those well known smiths, I can't remember who, kicked off because his blade was too short? My memory these days, sheesh!
 
AVigil said:
There have been some of the best bladesmiths on the show. As thing go, some of them did not make it to the end.
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Yes. The part to take away from that statement is that given crappy material under crappy conditions even the best may not look like it and someone who honestly may not deserve the win gets it. Throw a drunk Conor McGregor into a back alley brawl with a broken hand right after his wife left him and his dog died and any hobo living in a trashcan could probably beat him.

Or in this case take someone who's used to working with ratty tools and crappy materials and not giving a crap about quality and pit them against a guy who's used to working with good tools and quality materials who always goes after the best final product and put them both in a competition that only has crappy tools and crappy materials where quality matters less than time, well, sometimes the best will lose and the guy who's used to pumping out crap may have a better chance at producing something under those conditions.

If they had a competition building rat rods for the lowest price and without regard for true quality and only gave the crappiest car parts and crappy tools, a backyard trash mechanic may win over the best. Says nothing about who the best really is nor does it actually test what makes a good mechanic. There may be a particular set of circumstances where the best wins, but usually they won't fare all that well because they're not testing for the best. They're testing for who is used to working in the worst environments with parts that aren't normally used to make something good. The best of anything aren't used to working with piles of crap under horrible conditions.

You think the best scientists could create a laser with a pile of trash in the new York city sewer system? Maybe a backyard amateur hobbyist could create something that resembles a laser, but it probably won't be very good. it'll be a slight bit better than what an actual scientist could produce with the same materials and conditions. And the guy who's not actually a scientist would win that competition. Unless there's actually something there that can create a laser then the real scientist would show what can actually be done.

Real scientists that are just in it for fun and dont need to prove anything and have nothing to lose can enter and just have a good time. Fake scientists can enter and ride the acclaim of winning. Real scientists with everything to lose will not enter.
 
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I enjoy the show as a show, I also love seeing other smiths shops. I think what opened my eyes and made me more critical was watching that Youtube video series I posted about forging the dagger. He used minimum tools and really made me re evaluate my quality/tool ratio. But as Salem said in one of his posts past, don't let your tools hold you back. When I read that it really made me think things over in a different light.

I really considered putting in for the show but could not afford the time off and also did not have much experience with swords let alone large swords. My hat is off to smiths that give it a shot and especially to those who give it there all.
 
bodog said:
Yes. The part to take away from that statement is that given crappy material under crappy conditions even the best may not look like it and someone who honestly may not deserve the win gets it. Throw a drunk Conor McGregor into a back alley brawl with a broken hand right after his wife left him and his dog died and any hobo living in a trashcan could probably beat him.

Or in this case take someone who's used to working with ratty tools and crappy materials and not giving a crap about quality and pit them against a guy who's used to working with good tools and quality materials who always goes after the best final product and put them both in a competition that only has crappy tools and crappy materials where quality matters less than time, well, sometimes the best will lose and the guy who's used to pumping out crap may have a better chance at producing something under those conditions.

If they had a competition building rat rods for the lowest price and without regard for true quality and only gave the crappiest car parts and crappy tools, a backyard trash mechanic may win over the best. Says nothing about who the best really is nor does it actually test what makes a good mechanic. There may be a particular set of circumstances where the best wins, but usually they won't fare all that well because they're not testing for the best. They're testing for who is used to working in the worst environments with parts that aren't normally used to make something good. The best of anything aren't used to working with piles of crap under horrible conditions.

You think the best scientists could create a laser with a pile of trash in the new York city sewer system? Maybe a backyard amateur hobbyist could create something that resembles a laser, but it probably won't be very good. it'll be a slight bit better than what an actual scientist could produce with the same materials and conditions. And the guy who's not actually a scientist would win that competition. Unless there's actually something there that can create a laser then the real scientist would show what can actually be done.
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Every contestant is on equal footing in the show. You can make excuses as to why some win and other "better smiths" lose but the fact of the matter is it is about who can win the challenge placed in front of them.

That is the show

A loser can make excuses, but the winner does not have to.
 
AVigil said:
Every contestant is on equal footing in the show. You can make excuses as to why some win and other "better smiths" lose but the fact of the matter is it is about who can win the challenge placed in front of them.

That is the show

A loser can make excuses, but the winner does not have to.
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I don't agree at all. Take two men, one blind and one not, and put them in a pitch black room and tell them to find a hamburger sitting on a table. Maybe the guy who's not blind will find it first but I'd bet the blind man usually does. Doesn't mean the blind man can operate better under normal circumstances.

Forged in Fire in not a competition. It's a game show really no better than guessing prices on the price is right. As it stands now, anyway. Until they make it a competition that consistently shows who the best bladesmiths are then it's based on luck and blindly doing the right thing. That's just chance and luck mixed with the smallest amount true skill. Sometimes the ones with true skill fall into a game where their skill is properly showcased. The next episode or "game" may not be formed to show skill at all and the best guy loses. Or maybe the best guy is doing something extraordinary and fails because of a tiny flaw while the guy who wins barely does the minimum and wins. On a show like FIF I'd rather see more extraordinary risks than bare minimum garbage.

It'd be like watching a UFC match where a guy dominates four rounds and in the fifth round the other guy gets one lucky punch and a quick knockdown. The fight goes to the judges and they award the fight to the guy with one lucky punch. People who have even the smallest amount of knowledge would boo the judges' decision.
 
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JTknives said:
I enjoy the show as a show, I also love seeing other smiths shops. I think what opened my eyes and made me more critical was watching that Youtube video series I posted about forging the dagger. He used minimum tools and really made me re evaluate my quality/tool ratio. But as Salem said in one of his posts past, don't let your tools hold you back. When I read that it really made me think things over in a different light.

I really considered putting in for the show but could not afford the time off and also did not have much experience with swords let alone large swords. My hat is off to smiths that give it a shot and especially to those who give it there all.
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Absolutely, no matter what it's obviously a tough competition (game?) and hats off to the guys who take the challenge, win or lose. Most of the guys in my family who like to work with their hands watch the show. That says at least something.
 
FIF has come to resemble one of those food network cooking shows. It seemed to start out a bit better with seasoned bladesmiths like many of those cooking shows did with very good chefs but in the race for ratings they start to include odd constraints such as dish must include cheetos and foie gras and be plated within 35 minutes or in the blade case must be made of old car parts and slice bags of glass before spearing the relaxed pig carcass.

I hope it does not turn all the way into chopped the knife edition. That said, it was a real treat to see Salem on there and some of the episodes were pretty good. The thing to remember is that we are not the intended audience and it may bring more money into the craft. It also may make some very good second hand equipment available to the market as some wealthier would be knifemakers come to realize it is hard, hot and dirty work to make knives well and will quit after buying nice shiny expensive equipment they will have to unload on craigs list etc.

I do not think FIF will have the magnitude of effect that earlier cooking shows (1970s) did to build the huge culinary industry that exists today. I hope we never arrive at the point of celebrity bladesmiths and blade personality shows. Remember when chefs were viewed as just tradesman cooks toiling impossible hours in a hot kitchen and there were only 2 or 3 culinary schools in the US. That is the reality for most real chef/cooks still and I expect for most being a bladesmith will also still be underpaid hot and hard graft 40 years from now and those who find it rewarding meaningful labour will still ply their troth to the forge or in the case of cooks to the kitchen.
 
bodog said:
I don't agree at all. Take two men, one blind and one not, and put them in a pitch black room and tell them to find a hamburger sitting on a table. Maybe the guy who's not blind will find it first but I'd bet the blind man usually does. Doesn't mean the blind man can operate better under normal circumstances.

Forged in Fire in not a competition. It's a game show really no better than guessing prices on the price is right. As it stands now, anyway. Until they make it a competition that consistently shows who the best bladesmiths are then it's based on luck and blindly doing the right thing. That's just chance and luck mixed with the smallest amount true skill. Sometimes the ones with true skill fall into a game where their skill is properly showcased. The next episode or "game" may not be formed to show skill at all and the best guy loses. Or maybe the best guy is doing something extraordinary and fails because of a tiny flaw while the guy who wins barely does the minimum and wins. On a show like FIF I'd rather see more extraordinary risks than bare minimum garbage.

It'd be like watching a UFC match where a guy dominates four rounds and in the fifth round the other guy gets one lucky punch and a quick knockdown. The fight goes to the judges and they award the fight to the guy with one lucky punch. People who have even the smallest amount of knowledge would boo the judges' decision.
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You keep making analogies that do not apply to FIF, no one is blind, no one gets a lucky knock out.

All contestants are on equal footing at the start of the game show. It is about who can win the game, not hypothetical "who is best knifesmith"

When you play a game you have to pay attention, that is part of the game. In FIF if a contestant does not pay attention that can send them home even if he is a better smith.

There is "Luck" in competing, even when the very best are involved.
 
AVigil said:
You keep making analogies that do not apply to FIF, no one is blind, no one gets a lucky knock out.

All contestants are on equal footing at the start of the game show. It is about who can win the game, not hypothetical "who is best knifesmith"

When you play a game you have to pay attention, that is part of the game. In FIF if a contestant does not pay attention that can send them home even if he is a better smith.

There is "Luck" in competing, even when the very best are involved.
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We won't agree except when you say they're not looking for the best. They're only looking for people who can win that episode's games.
 
I think for the most part it's even at least in the choices given. But some times it's not like when thy had to pull the mistery steel out of the barrel. Some of the steels where perfect for forge heat treating and others not so much. I would not want to heat treat 52100 (ball bearing) in a forge. Or the "have to use car parts" episode. If everyone got the same steel then yes ok fine but lots of times its a race to see who gets the better steel. Oh and I was shocked when thy even had 24hr epoxy on the set. Why on earth would you have that there unless your planting a trap for someone that might not be paying full attention. Yes that's not the shows fault when some one uses it as the smith should be paying attention but just seams like a set up. But with all that said its a show and better then a lot of the other crap that's on. I'm like you all, I watch and point saying oh man don't do that that's a mistake and I would do it different. The big difference is I'm sitting in a relaxing chair and not under the pressure thy are. So I try not to be an "arm chair bladesmith" and give respect where respect is due and relize that at least thy had the guts to go In front of a camera and most likely fail.
 
Thank you for posting that, I knew somthing must have happened in the background that we did not see. My hat is off to him for pushing hard to get it done and even attempting another one. We never knew there was a weight limit.
 
David Stifle said:
Wasn't one of those well known smiths, I can't remember who, kicked off because his blade was too short? My memory these days, sheesh!
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Mastersmith J.D. Smith made a remarkably good blade, well proportioned, beautiful, and highly functional....that was a bit on the short side. Just shows to go ya....
 
David Stifle said:
That's it! I remember thinking what a shame it was.
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Not only was his blade shorter than the specified minimum length, he only used 2 metals when the other rule was to weld 3 different metals into their billet. How can you begrudge the judges for disqualifying a blade that did not meet the two of the prestated criteria?
 
Carcara said:
Not only was his blade shorter than the specified minimum length, he only used 2 metals when the other rule was to weld 3 different metals into their billet. How can you begrudge the judges for disqualifying a blade that did not meet the two of the prestated criteria?
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You don't, but given that he could just as easily been sitting on the judge's panel rather than any if the three there, some deference could have been given, even if it was just to test it without giving him the win.

I doubt his competition could produce anything like this:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/599388-J-D-Smith-Photos
 
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bodog said:
You don't, but given that he could just as easily been sitting on the judge's panel rather than any if the three there, some deference could have been given, even if it was just to test it without giving him the win.

I doubt his competition could produce anything like this:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/599388-J-D-Smith-Photos
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Quite possible they could not produce those pieces, but they were able to follow simple directions, and not get lost and forget which work station was theirs.
 
Carcara said:
Quite possible they could not produce those pieces, but they were able to follow simple directions, and not get lost and forget which work station was theirs.
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So then they were better at a game while he can produce better knives...
 
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