Forged In Fire

RogerP said:
Lorien - where are you seeing the show - does it air in BC? It doesn't in Ontario.
Click to expand...

I don't even have cable, and haven't seen the show, either.
 
I think the thought into the show is to take people, knife builders in this case, and remove them from their comfort zone.
If you want to see cracker jack knife building one can see this on U Tube.
The mind set now days that draws ratings is survival. Whether you are buck naked in some hell hole trying to last or you have been given an near impossible assignment to achieve with time constraints.
Yes things happen good and mostly bad when the pressure is on.
So if a viewer could care less about large knives being hammered on by a blacksmith, they get to see people freaking out with heat exhaustion trying to achieve some goal they have never done before in their lifetime and cheer on their favorite contestant.
And to make it worse, there is a panel of judges sitting on their butts while these men work throwing out ridiculous critiques.

Gary
 
mwschilling said:
I am a collector and likely couldn't make a knife to save my own life. That said, I have read with interest all the comments regarding the show, particularly those of the contestant who participated. I too have been disappointed in the show and how it portrays the craft of knife making. I think it does show the general process but it fails to illustrate the potential results under normal circumstances. I get that it is supposed to be entertaining and, from that limited perspective, perhaps it succeeds.

What concerns me is that the show never introduces the makers' real work, what they are capable of doing under proper circumstances. I think if it did that the makers on the show would be better represented and it would add perspective to the challenge of making a blade under the conditions set forth on the stage. As is stands, the audience knows little about these contestants and what they are capable of producing. More importantly, the audience knows nothing of what blade smiths in general are capable of producing with a forge. All we see is the crap that is produced in these circumstances. And, let's not kid ourselves, it is all crap. No collector would buy one of those knives and nobody in the audience who is not a collector would see those blade and think, Wow that really is better than what I can buy at the mall. I'm not sure how that helps the industry of custom knives or motivates people to look into buying a custom knife.

Again, if the show would introduce each contestant and show off pieces of their current work, it would better illustrate the challenge of the contest and the circumstances of forging a blade within 3 hours under these conditions. These knife makers would get some exposure and the custom knife industry would be seen in a better light. Even if they just showed work done by J. Neilson to illustrate what is possible with a forge it would be better. I feel for CS Farrel because I can tell he is hurt by all the negativity. I doubt any of the concerns over the show are directed personally towards those who choose to participate. All contestants did what they could under conditions of the challenge and none of us who did not know them prior to the show had any perspective regarding their true capabilities. That is a shame IMHO.
Click to expand...

Great post Mark!
 
I understand the comments about supporting the contestants, but the show really needs to be seen for an opinion to be made. I love the idea of the show, but when I see a guy with 20 yrs experience bust out the mig welder rather than forge welding a cutting edge- in his own shop, not their studio- it kind of surprised me.

These guys did stick their necks out, but with the chance of winning $10k comes the risk of criticism. Whether society admits it or not, there are winners and losers. Now with the negative comments flying, wait until someone actually does something impressive on the show-- they'll be the big winner!

I just haven't been too impressed yet.

Tad
 
I agree, Tad. I keep hoping to see something noteworthy. I will give them credit for bringing a topic to TV we haven't seen before, but the "Top Chef"-ness, as well as the scripted language, is annoying. I worry it might hurt what brain power I have left.

I give kudos to the guys who are competing. Obviously the pressure amps things up from what they're used to, but they can learn something from it if they want. I know one thing - I won't judge any of them and sure wouldn't let the results on the show from stopping me from supporting any of them that have a product that I want. The shows seems like the makers are figuratively subjected to bad heat treatment.

If I keep watching, it will be with the hopes of seeing a truly gifted, new maker knocking one out of the park. That would make the scripted crap worth it.
 
navman said:
A buddy of mine I served with at RIVRON pointed this show out to me....not for the content but because of the host. Whiskey Whiskey (Wil Willis) was our combatives and TCCC instructor when we first stood up the Riverine Squadrons in 2007!

still haven't watched the show yet....
Click to expand...

I remembered Will from his special operations show.
 
Ed Caffrey said:
Well, one of the reprecussions of this show happened to me yesterday. Got a phone call from a fella wanting to order "a chopping knife". We chatted about what he wanted, and I quoted him a price..... his response was "What!? Are you crazy? I saw that show on the History Channel......and I know you can make a knife in less then a day!" The conversation ended shortly there after. Had it not happened to me, I would not have believed it.

Now I guess its just a matter of time until somebody calls up and tells me they have an old prybar or a farrier's rasp that they want me to make them a knife from, and tell me they saw it on TV. :)
Click to expand...

Invite them to your shop and let forge on that old prybar a while. Then your price won't seem so un-reasonable.
 
Well, here goes.
For all the makers that turned the show down because it might hurt your feelings if you would have happened to lose to a lesser known maker, your the reason that the show doesn't have all the big boys playing. I was on the last show which will air August 10, just in case you want to watch. Seems most of you don't grasp the story line of this series. If you don't know the maker on the show, don't worry, you could probably find their name in Blade 2014. Which reminds me, how many do you know in that book? The knife world is bigger than your circle of friends, get used to it and be not afraid, most of us are good people.
It is NOT about who is the best bladesmith in the world, but who can take some unknown steels and produce the knife that will perform the best under the "same conditions". BY USING A FORGE. Hence the name "Forged in Fire".
It would be nice if every one of you got the chance to talk to some one that watched the show and wanted a knife. YOU could have educated them a little more and even if they didn't place an order, made another friend for the knife forging community. From my point of view, this show will enable those that know nothing about knife making, a bit of an education. For those that think this should be a "How To" show, go to Youtube and watch those videos. I am sure that all the mistakes have been edited out of those so you will feel good about that. Because we don't make mistakes, right.
Just for a bit of unbiased opinions, ask some one that isn't a knife maker to watch it once and let you know what they thought about it. And if you got a bunch of non knife making friends, it may be a way to see how they would feel about the show.
The ABS two hour Battle of the Bladesmiths is under better conditions. No restrictions imposed at all. Usually have better equipment and you know what you will be doing. Make a blade. How many of you have tried to get in on that?
There is nothing wrong with making a beautiful blade that you can sell for a lot of money. Show your skills and get paid for it. If that is what you want. I have friends that can make extremely nice blades, both folders and fixed blades. They like doing it.
And then there are those of us who like to make a cutting tool that will out perform all the others. We go for handle comfort, edge holding, and try to give the biggest value for the dollar.
We all make knives and anything that ANY OF US can do to bring it to the publics attention, should be done.
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure why I received the following as a private message, but I'm going to post it here because it likely took some time to write and probably reflects what some of you might have drawn from my previous posts. Of all the various points I made in both posts, this is what I figure triggered the message I received;

That anyone is seriously slagging the people who participate in this show, I think you better check yourselves before you project your jealousy and envy outward through your expressions of disdain. These guys are taking a big risk, and the outcome could, and likely will, benefit you. So unless you like having egg on your face, I'd suggest taking Mr. Farrell's words to heart, and temper your disdain. You don't have to like it, but you don't have to be a dick about it either. These guys are your peers, and it's universally seen as unprofessional to shit on your peers.

Here's the message I got;

Lorien, regarding your post #101 in the Forged in Fire thread…..How in the world are you able to comment on, challenge anyone's remarks positive or negative or other wise participate with out any basis in fact by having at least seen the show.. Apparently your comments and opinions are based completely on hearsay and lack of facts.

I took your post in repose to Farrell with a grain of salt, but now that I know you haven't even seen the two episodes I think that post was reactive at best and pure crap at the worst. To infer that people who made NO negative comments about the contestants, but were critical of the show format were jealous and generally mean spirited is just not right.

Most of what I said and what I read reflected that the format of the show sucks and the contestants were not given a chance to produce anything like their normal work. How do you get jealous and mean spirit out of that? No one said any individual contestant lacked talent or under normal conditions does not produce acceptable work. I also failed to see any abusive language, name calling, or personality trait references directed at any of the contestants.

You might read Mark Schilling's post again and maybe get a little better understanding of why people are critical of the show as it was produced.



I only have a couple comments in response;

- None of my comments had anything to do with the structure of the show itself, but I have seen enough reality shows to know the kind of 'global' effect they generally have on consumers. I thought I was pretty clear that that was what I was commenting on. Perhaps my posts were misunderstood, but I really don't see how. But hell, if you wanna play 'gotcha'- fill your boots- just know that I'm not playing and I meant what I said.

- I made no inferences to people in general or to people critical of the show itself, only to people who show disdain for the participants and their efforts. I was speaking specifically of those who are 'being a dick about it'. There's a reason why people who aren't dicks act dickish, and it usually has something to do with jealousy. Imo. Anyway, reread my post, it's pretty clear.

- a prominent mastersmith, someone who a great many aspirants look up to, said elsewhere, publicly, that participants should learn how to forge before taking part in the show. It was the opposite of supportive and generated a good number of nasty comments about the participants, not the show.

- I read Mark's post, and I think he makes a good point. But, I haven't seen the show and wouldn't presume to inform the producers on how to run it. Perhaps a letter from a group such as the CKCA or the ABS would be an effective way of detailing suggestions for improvement.
 
Last edited:
mwschilling said:
What concerns me is that the show never introduces the makers' real work, what they are capable of doing under proper circumstances. I think if it did that the makers on the show would be better represented and it would add perspective to the challenge of making a blade under the conditions set forth on the stage. As is stands, the audience knows little about these contestants and what they are capable of producing.
...

Again, if the show would introduce each contestant and show off pieces of their current work, it would better illustrate the challenge of the contest and the circumstances of forging a blade within 3 hours under these conditions. These knife makers would get some exposure and the custom knife industry would be seen in a better light.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I think would make the show much better. During the interview process for the show, you must email a bunch of nice photos of your work to the producers, so they could at least give each contestant a quick little intro where they give a few sentences about what they make, and flash up a few photos that show their motif. Just a little 10 or 15 second intro is all it would take, before the contest begins.
 
the public doesn't care about craftsmanship, they don't want to learn anything, they want to see heartbreak and failure with a king crowned at the end. Hey buddy, you know that knife you have been working on for 2 hours? Well guess what...it's 2 inches short so now what are you going to do?
does this sound familiar?
"one by one the bladesmiths will be eliminated until only one remains to be crowned the champion."
 
Ed Caffrey said:
Well, one of the reprecussions of this show happened to me yesterday. Got a phone call from a fella wanting to order "a chopping knife". We chatted about what he wanted, and I quoted him a price..... his response was "What!? Are you crazy? I saw that show on the History Channel......and I know you can make a knife in less then a day!" The conversation ended shortly there after. Had it not happened to me, I would not have believed it.

Now I guess its just a matter of time until somebody calls up and tells me they have an old prybar or a farrier's rasp that they want me to make them a knife from, and tell me they saw it on TV. :)
Click to expand...

Wow. Thanks for sharing that, Ed.

sheathmaker said:
Now, Ed, you know if it's on the internet or on TV it has to be true;)

I have kept quiet about this show, but to me….my very own personal opinion it's taking all of you true Master Smiths back a step or two. The number of Smiths who were contacted to participate and who refused is another story in itself.

There are those who say it will bring new folks into the world of custom knives. I sincerely doubt that, and your experience tends to prove my point. They come into the custom knife community with the wrong ideas about what it takes to really make a forged knife or even stock removal for that matter.

I really feel sorry for the guys who did chose to participate because they were not allowed to show what they are REALLY capable of.

Some say it's "entertainment"…………I am not entertained by seeing my friends and colleagues subjected to a format that ultimately fails to show their true talent, and in fact just the reverse.

Finally, the use of the word WEAPON every three minutes also tends to convey the wrong image and message in my opinion.

Off my soap box and back to your regular programming.

Paul
Click to expand...

A lot of wisdom there, Paul, per usual. The only quibble I have is what I bolded above. No one twisted these guys arms. I have a problem saying they "were subjected" to anything. They subjected themselves voluntarily.

csfarrell said:
I'm just going to agree with Lorien and his friends words. As a contestant I debated the pros and cons of doing the show both for my own meager reputation and more importantly this craft I love that has done so much for me. When I met my fellow contestants I was greeted as a peer, as a brother by other craftsmen with a love for what we do. All of them had the same concerns as I. They were incredibly nervous, we had no idea what we were walking into, they're biggest concern was not how they would look but how the show would portray our craft and the people in it. For some of them it was so much so that it effected their performance which is unfortunate because I looked at their work and it's fantastic.
We were worried the show was going to make our craft of Bladesmithing and Blacksmithing look like a joke. But here's the twist it doesn't those at the show seem to be doing their best not to, trying to focus on the nature of the competition and keep it entertaining for the viewer. They have gone out of their way to portray us well. Our peers however, that is another story all together. The real embarrassment here is how you are behaving, attacking your fellow makers and enthusiasts the way you have makes me sick. You have no idea what those guys were going through, but you have made at least one of their nightmares come true. To be attacked by the people they respect and admire in some cases look up to. Judging people off the limited screenshots of a tv show that are often out of order under circumstances you are clueless about projecting a shitty elitist attitude like your way of making a blade is the only way. Let me remind you there are a lot of ways to make a blade a lot wrong ways as well but there is no one way. Your the embarrassment to the craft, your critical monday morning quarterbacking elitist attitude is what is embarrassing and I'm glad the " unwashed masses " as someone put it are not on most of our "community" forums to see it. I am not the greatest Bladesmith in the world nor do I want to be. I do this because I love it, I do this to be better tomorrow than I am today. Words are not my strong suite but I can not watch my fellow craftsmen be treated this way. I have always found other makers to be incredibly supportive of each other please remember that, and what we are truly about.
Click to expand...

I really haven't seen critical comments about the participants to which you refer, so I really can't understand where you are coming from with the comments I highlighted above. I am very sorry you feel that way - that folks are attacking you. The task is a ridiculous challenge IMO, not lending itself to greatness, and instead geared to producing drama and trauma. That's TV.

Personally, I thank you and every other participant, because without your willingness to put yourself out there like that under almost impossible circumstances, there would be no show. And I think the show is a good thing. And I have enjoyed watching it, and will continue to do so.

Lorien said:
Given the dollars that makers of folding knives are fetching for their work, my answer to your question is that most serious bladesmiths might not be lacking in customers, but they are lacking in profit.

I just acquired an exceptionally well crafted, sole authorship, damascus knife with a complex frame handle by a universally recognized maker for less than the price of a Mayo framelock. I'm no expert, but it's readily evident how much more work went into the forged blade.

If this show, or shows like this, elevate the perception of value by potential consumers, and increases the number- and therefore competition- of consumers, then that benefits the blade smiths who master their trade with increased revenue that will help feed their families. I'm all for raising the minimum wage of blade smithing. I wish more people work for themselves and find the rewards of doing so, as it stands, it's a very tough living which essentially requires additional income from other work. This 'rising of the tide' also benefits collectors who've accumulated quality work at today's prices.

That anyone is seriously slagging the people who participate in this show, I think you better check yourselves before you project your jealousy and envy outward through your expressions of disdain. These guys are taking a big risk, and the outcome could, and likely will, benefit you. So unless you like having egg on your face, I'd suggest taking Mr. Farrell's words to heart, and temper your disdain. You don't have to like it, but you don't have to be a dick about it either. These guys are your peers, and it's universally seen as unprofessional to shit on your peers.

Pretty sure that's about all I have to say about that :)
Click to expand...

I am not sure you meant to imply that Tom Mayo's knives are overpriced. I hope not. No one pays anyone for how much work you do. They pay for the product and the results.

I agree with your sentiment against folks picking on the participants - and especially not being a dick about it. And I do so as someone who has actually been watching this show. But I really have not seen anyone bashing the participants here on this thread. Have I missed something?

That having been said, I could understand how some folks could be critical of the knives that have been produced without attributing that to jealousy or envy. Maybe you should watch the show first?

mwschilling said:
I am a collector and likely couldn't make a knife to save my own life. That said, I have read with interest all the comments regarding the show, particularly those of the contestant who participated. I too have been disappointed in the show and how it portrays the craft of knife making. I think it does show the general process but it fails to illustrate the potential results under normal circumstances. I get that it is supposed to be entertaining and, from that limited perspective, perhaps it succeeds.

What concerns me is that the show never introduces the makers' real work, what they are capable of doing under proper circumstances. I think if it did that the makers on the show would be better represented and it would add perspective to the challenge of making a blade under the conditions set forth on the stage. As is stands, the audience knows little about these contestants and what they are capable of producing. More importantly, the audience knows nothing of what blade smiths in general are capable of producing with a forge. All we see is the crap that is produced in these circumstances. And, let's not kid ourselves, it is all crap. No collector would buy one of those knives and nobody in the audience who is not a collector would see those blade and think, Wow that really is better than what I can buy at the mall. I'm not sure how that helps the industry of custom knives or motivates people to look into buying a custom knife.

Again, if the show would introduce each contestant and show off pieces of their current work, it would better illustrate the challenge of the contest and the circumstances of forging a blade within 3 hours under these conditions. These knife makers would get some exposure and the custom knife industry would be seen in a better light. Even if they just showed work done by J. Neilson to illustrate what is possible with a forge it would be better. I feel for CS Farrel because I can tell he is hurt by all the negativity. I doubt any of the concerns over the show are directed personally towards those who choose to participate. All contestants did what they could under conditions of the challenge and none of us who did not know them prior to the show had any perspective regarding their true capabilities. That is a shame IMHO.
Click to expand...

A lot of valid points, IMO.

It is not a PBS documentary. It is a general cable show and like all such shows it really has only one goal: to attract and retain enough viewers to sell to advertisers. Anyone who tries to look at it any other way is really only going to be disappointed and possibly frustrated.

raker said:
Well, here goes.
For all the makers that turned the show down because it might hurt your feelings if you would have happened to lose to a lesser known maker, your the reason that the show doesn't have all the big boys playing. I was on the last show which will air August 10, just in case you want to watch. Seems most of you don't grasp the story line of this series. If you don't know the maker on the show, don't worry, you could probably find their name in Blade 2014. Which reminds me, how many do you know in that book? The knife world is bigger than your circle of friends, get used to it and be not afraid, most of us are good people.
It is NOT about who is the best bladesmith in the world, but who can take some unknown steels and produce the knife that will perform the best under the "same conditions". BY USING A FORGE. Hence the name "Forged in Fire".
It would be nice if every one of you got the chance to talk to some one that watched the show and wanted a knife. YOU could have educated them a little more and even if they didn't place an order, made another friend for the knife forging community. From my point of view, this show will enable those that know nothing about knife making, a bit of an education. For those that think this should be a "How To" show, go to Youtube and watch those videos. I am sure that all the mistakes have been edited out of those so you will feel good about that. Because we don't make mistakes, right.
Just for a bit of unbiased opinions, ask some one that isn't a knife maker to watch it once and let you know what they thought about it. And if you got a bunch of non knife making friends, it may be a way to see how they would feel about the show.
The ABS two hour Battle of the Bladesmiths is under better conditions. No restrictions imposed at all. Usually have better equipment and you know what you will be doing. Make a blade. How many of you have tried to get in on that?
There is nothing wrong with making a beautiful blade that you can sell for a lot of money. Show your skills and get paid for it. If that is what you want. I have friends that can make extremely nice blades, both folders and fixed blades. They like doing it.
And then there are those of us who like to make a cutting tool that will out perform all the others. We go for handle comfort, edge holding, and try to give the biggest value for the dollar.
We all make knives and anything that ANY OF US can do to bring it to the publics attention, should be done.
Click to expand...

Again, some good points.

But I did not read any makers say that they turned the show down because it might hurt their feelings if they would have happened to lose to a lesser known maker, so I am not sure where you are getting that.

Anyway, thanks for appearing on the show, and I look forward to watching your episode.
 
i like the show,my wife loves the show.
pretty good for a 30 min show and what these guys accomplish in the set time frame.
yep all about taking people ot of their comfort zone and seeing what they can do.
about time we got a knife show on air.
QYB
 
raker said:
The ABS two hour Battle of the Bladesmiths is under better conditions. No restrictions imposed at all. Usually have better equipment and you know what you will be doing.
Click to expand...

I don't agree.

The ABS Battle of the Bladesmiths smiths had 2 hours (not 3) to create a completed knife (not just the blade) that would stand up to ABS quality standards.

Better equipment? I've seen both shows and looks to me the Forged in Fire makers have a fully equipped shop at their disposal.
The ABS BOTBS makers were only allowed a forge, anvil, belt grinder, a drill press and only hand tools they could carry in a 5-gal bucket.

I assume, Forged in Fire was filmed in a studio with a limited number of people observing, the ABS BOTBS contestants had probably 150 knifemaker and collectors
looking over their shoulders every step of the way. The ABS BOTBS was obviously "live" so nothing could be edited out.

I didn't make my previous post to compare the show's makers to the BOTBS makers but more to idenify what can be accomplished in a very short time period, under pressure with limited resources.
I feel the Forged in Fire makers generally performed admirably and did the best they could everything considered.

My point was more that IMO, the show could be much better/interesting, educational and handmade-forged knives shown in a much more positive light if the Forged in Fire producers had invested more research and thought in creation of the show.

Before the show aired, I was very positive and excited that custom knives was going to get some positive and widespread exposure but..................................

Perhaps the best is yet to come!
 
Lorien said:
- I read Mark's post, and I think he makes a good point. But, I haven't seen the show and wouldn't presume to inform the producers on how to run it. Perhaps a letter from a group such as the CKCA or the ABS would be an effective way of detailing suggestions for improvement.
Click to expand...

I don't know what if any good a letter could do at this point as I'm sure all episodes are in the can ready for airing.
As you stated Mark gave good advice in his post and if they had come to the CKCA seeking input/advice during the show's concept and planning sages
Mark would have most likely been one of the individuals offering such. I feel the show would have benefited from both CKCA and ABS input.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top